The Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi Pt. 2

In this second part of The Compendium's exploration of Emanuela Orlandi's mysterious disappearance, we uncover even darker secrets surrounding the Vatican, Pope John Paul II, and the Mafia. From shocking testimonies of key witnesses to the revelation hidden within stolen vatican documents. This second part of the Emanuela Orlandi Story takes even more dark twists and turns as we edge closer to the truth of what happened to Emanuela Orlandi over 40 years ago. As new evidence emerges, could the answers finally be within reach?

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:

1. The Vatican Girl [2022] - Netflix Documentary
2. Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi - Wikipedia
3. God’s Banker: The Life and Death of Roberto Calvi - by Rupert Cornwell
4. Three Secrets of Fátima - Wikipedia
5. Attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia
6. Who killed Robert Calvi, Gods banker? - the Gaurdian

Host & Show Info

• Hosts: Kyle Risi & Adam Cox
• About: Kyle and Adam are more than just your hosts, they’re your close friends sharing intriguing stories from tales from the darker corners of true crime, the annals of your forgotten history books, and the who's who of incredible people.
• Intro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin

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Chapters

• 0:00 Sneak peak
• 0:44 Welcome to The Compendium
• 2:15 Topic of the week
• 57:30 Outro

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: When they opened the tombs, what do you think they found? 

[00:00:04] Adam Cox: I want to say nothing. 

[00:00:05] Kyle Risi: Adam, literally nothing. Nothing. Not even the remains of the two princesses who were supposed to have been buried there. 

[00:00:12] Adam Cox: That's what I mean, like, where are they? Because they would have been there. 

[00:00:15] Kyle Risi: Yeah, they're gone. Completely empty. 

[00:00:17] Everyone's just, gasp, gasp. 

[00:00:21] Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. A weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. We explore stories from the darker corners of true crime, the annuls [00:01:00] of your old unread history books, and the who's who of extraordinary people.

[00:01:04] I'm of course your ring master this week, Kyle Recy. And I'm your ventriloquist dummy this week, Adam Coggs. Got my hand firmly up your bum. Yeah, 

[00:01:14] Adam Cox: I'm not actually here. This is all you. 

[00:01:18] Kyle Risi: For throwing my voice.

[00:01:19] Adam Cox: Yes, I'm on strike at the moment. 

[00:01:22] Kyle Risi: Freaks, this is a PSA announcement letting you know that All The Latest Things is now its own episode, exclusively available for free on our Patreon.

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[00:02:11] Your support really helps us reach even more freaks of the show. 

[00:02:15] So Adam, it's the second part and conclusion of our episode on The Mysterious Disappearance of Emanuella Orlandi. 

[00:02:24] Adam Cox: Yeah, what's the Pope been up to? 

[00:02:25] Kyle Risi: Today's compendium, we are diving into an assembly of continued conspiracies, sacred graves, mafia confessions, and even more Vatican secrets.

[00:02:35] I'm so ready for this. 

[00:02:37] In the first episode, we found out how for centuries the Vatican had been a symbol of reverence and secrecy. Its immense spiritual and political power allowed it to guard its secrets behind its walls. One of those secrets revolved around their involvement in the disappearance of 15 year old Emanuela Orlandi, who vanished from Rome following a music lesson [00:03:00] 1983.

[00:03:01] The Vatican always denied any involvement and it stayed suspiciously quiet her disappearance unravelled. What makes Emmanuelle's disappearance so intriguing is that she was, of course, no ordinary girl. 

[00:03:16] Adam Cox: She was a Vatican girl. 

[00:03:18] Kyle Risi: That's right, a holy sea citizen. So the Vatican's silence struck many as strange, especially since the Vatican's prior dirty dealings lay down the perfect motive for someone to kidnap her and wage their demands against the church. Because I guess it's true to say that's what this looks like , right? 

[00:03:35] Adam Cox: Yeah, I'd say so. Everything that you've said in the last episode is definitely pointing that direction. My only counter argument is that she went to her music lesson, Her music teacher told her she sucked and she went on the run for 40 years.

[00:03:49] Kyle Risi: Or her teacher killed her, I don't know. 

[00:03:51] Adam Cox: Or with her flute, bashed her over the head. 

[00:03:53] Kyle Risi: God, Adam, we're supposed to be really sensitive to the fact that this girl has disappeared. 

[00:03:58] Adam Cox: I, you know, true. I, [00:04:00] I'm definitely on the side of the Vatican is up to no good. 

[00:04:03] Kyle Risi: Anything could happen at this point, remember. We don't know what's happened to her. But hopefully today's episode will maybe potentially shed some light on what the most logical explanation is. The Vatican, as we remember, had been found to be laundering billions leading to the collapse of an Italian bank and losing illicit mafia money in the process. 

[00:04:21] The Vatican had been laundering this money to fund political organizations in the Soviet Union all for the intent of trying to bring back Catholicism to the region. So the question becomes, did the Vatican piss off a powerful entity and were they trying to be made whole as a result of the Vatican's activities.

[00:04:39] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, has the Soviet Union ever had Roman Catholicism? 

[00:04:46] Kyle Risi: No, so they're very atheist there might be like Orthodox Russian kind of religions. That's what I thought. Yeah. That's typically before the Romanovs were executed, but then also following but largely they atheists essentially. 

[00:04:59] Okay. 

[00:04:59] In the [00:05:00] last episode we retrace Emmanuel's steps before she disappeared. This led us onto a series of calls from an unknown caller calling himself the American, demanding the release of me met Ali aga, the Popes would be assassin. 

[00:05:14] But the strange behavior led people to speculate that this may just be a hoax, potentially by the Vatican, to distract attention away from their involvement in this case. Because when the deadline for Mehmet Ali Akar's release came and went, the case just seemed to fizzle out.

[00:05:31] But this wouldn't be for long because today our story will continue from where we left off and lead us to a woman who claimed that she had handed Emanuela over to a Vatican priest in the middle of the night.

[00:05:43] Stolen Vatican documents also will prove that the Vatican was way more involved than they actually claimed and a confession from a mafia boss along with cryptic letters will send investigators to open three mysterious Vatican graves in a desperate search for any clues.

[00:05:59] So I think [00:06:00] it's fair to say that our theories as to what's happened right now is that the mafia or some other big organization is pissed off at the Vatican and they're trying to get leverage over them. 

[00:06:10] Adam Cox: Yeah, that would make sense. The Vatican is being very, well, very secretive like they normally are not admitting to things. And There was that guy that was hung from the bridge as well, which we're still not quite sure how he's connected into all this. 

[00:06:24] Kyle Risi: There's a speculation that the Mafia was involved then maybe they kidnapped him as a warning to the Vatican sending them a message in classic Mafia style, may I add.

[00:06:33] So Adam, following the American issuing his deadline for the release of Mehmet Ali Akar, Which came and went without his release. The family expected to find Emanuela's body on their doorstep the following day, but when they woke, this wasn't the case.

[00:06:47] Instead, they were met with radio silence, with no more contact from the American. The case had now very few leads to pursue. However, six months after Emanuela's disappearance, and following six months of silence and [00:07:00] refusal to get involved, Emanuela's family were surprised when they received a visit from John Paul II himself.

[00:07:08] during this visit, the Pope was of course incredibly sympathetic to their suffering and the feeling from the family was that despite six months of silence, the Vatican was now finally showing that they actually did care. 

[00:07:19] But strangely, at the end of the Pope's visit, he said to them, we are doing everything humanely possible. Unfortunately, Emanuela's case is one of international terrorism. 

[00:07:30] Adam Cox: That's interesting that he had come out with that. So what does the Pope know? 'cause I feel like he knows way more throughout this whole few months than he's letting on. 

[00:07:37] Kyle Risi: If they were investigating then they certainly weren't corroborating with the police, so how have they come to gain this information that it was something to do with international terrorism?

[00:07:45] I don't know. 

[00:07:46] Adam Cox: I mean, I guess if they're looking to get this guy released. Then, okay, maybe there, it does make sense, and obviously the Vatican had offered to accept calls from the American in order to try and But he never 

[00:07:58] Kyle Risi: called, right? Never 

[00:07:58] Adam Cox: called, but some, [00:08:00] I guess That we know of. I guess this would be terrorism, you could class the guy as a terrorist? 

[00:08:04] Kyle Risi: But again, if they were interested in helping get Emanuela back, they would have helped the police negotiate the release of this guy, but there was just nothing.

[00:08:11] The family was, of course, shocked at hearing this for two reasons. Number one, this was the first time the family found out that the Vatican was doing their own investigation, right? There was no indication of that before. And not once did they ever consult the family to gather information that they felt might be valuable.

[00:08:27] They always maintained that her disappearance had nothing to do with them. But then they found out that not only was the Vatican investigating, but her disappearance was a result of international terrorism. And Adam, that is huge.

[00:08:37] When the family asked if they thought that there was any hope of finding Emanuela alive, the Pope simply replied with no. 

[00:08:46] Wow. 

[00:08:47] That's cold. So what's going on here? Was this legit or was the Vatican trying to get the family to give up looking for Emanuela to deflect any investigation away from them.

[00:08:58] Do you think that by saying this, that [00:09:00] the Italian investigators might pull back their investigation if they knew that the Pope's life was potentially in jeopardy once again?

[00:09:06] Adam Cox: I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting because You would think even someone like the Pope would be a little bit more sensitive even if like the chances of finding Emmanuel alive are so slim. You'd think he would deliver it in like we, you know, we're probably looking for a body now thing rather than no.

[00:09:26] Yeah, exactly. So I don't know that's unless he's just, you know, on the spectrum can't deliver bad news. Well, I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Absolutely. So. It just seems a little bit off. 

[00:09:39] Why would this girl who lives in the Vatican City, who had no business, Baja, just going to her music class, whatever. Why would she be convinced by that? Abducted, unless she saw something or whatever, but I don't understand how her disappearance is connected to the guy who's in prison right now and this whole, everything else. Sure,

[00:09:56] Kyle Risi: the thing is though, not everyone is convinced by this. So a journalist [00:10:00] named Andrea Percatori decides to go investigate. His sniffing around results in him being contacted by an anonymous source from the Italian secret services who requests to meet up with him. The agent tells Andrea that he knew without a doubt that Emanuela's disappearance had nothing to do with international terrorism. 

[00:10:18] It actually involved local crime organizations and Vatican money, something that many, had already speculated against. But now, there seems to be a smoking gun, right? This is the first piece of evidence that's actually pointing in that direction. Sure. Everything else has just been speculation up to this point. 

[00:10:35] Also this seems to connect the dots between what happened to Roberto Calvi the dodgy banker who was laundering the money on behalf of the Vatican, which included Mafia money.

[00:10:43] When Roberto Kelvey's bank collapsed, his body was eventually discovered hanging under Blackfriars Bridge in London. A message perhaps to the Vatican that they were going to make them pay for losing their money. 

[00:10:55] So Andrea immediately went home. He writes an article summarizing what he had learned. The following day, he [00:11:00] published an article in the Evening Courier, immediately following this, the Vatican, which had remained silent for all these months, releases a statement denying the claims in the article, accusing Andrea of slander and attacking the Vatican.

[00:11:15] So the question there is, did Andrea hit a nerve? Because again, remember, the Vatican has been quiet this whole time. As soon as this article comes out, because remember, there'd been so many different speculations . This one in particular, the Vatican responds to. 

[00:11:27] Adam Cox: Is this the first one that's printed, or? Has the rest of the speculation been hearsay and kind of spoken, whereas this is now in print for everyone to see? 

[00:11:36] Kyle Risi: There's been loads of journalists sniffing around this. This is the first kind of angle that calls into question that it was Mafia related. The Mafia involved, yeah. 

[00:11:45] Adam Cox: And So this source has said it is the Mafia, it's down to the banker, whereas before, no one else had come forward. They'd speculated it was to do with this banker and everything else, 

[00:11:54] Kyle Risi: And I definitely think that they hit a nerve, because that same afternoon, Andreas told by his editor that he was no longer permitted [00:12:00] to write about Emanuela or the Vatican.

[00:12:02] Years later, Andreas said that he was proud of this fact because the Vatican's reaction showed he was close to the truth and that they were trying to shy him up for it. And I think that's plausible. But the thing is though, this is the last major event in the story for about 10 years, which brings us to 1993 when the Orlandi family receive a call from an Italian magistrate.

[00:12:25] They had received a tip that there was a young nun living in a convent in Luxembourg who shared similar facial features to Emanuella. A photo confirmed that they looked very similar, and alongside investigators and Secret Service agents, the family boarded a flight to Luxembourg.

[00:12:40] When the Orlandis arrived, they were ushered into a small room at the back of the convent and told that the girl was waiting in the next room. The family was told, however, that Emanuela's mother, Maria, was the only person permitted to meet with the elusive nun. 

[00:12:55] So as the family waited outside, Maria entered alone, Several minutes later, Maria [00:13:00] came back and it was clear, just by the look on her face, that the nun was not Emanuella.

[00:13:05] So can you imagine that 10 years later, you get a tip that maybe your daughter could be living in a convent in Luxembourg, WTF straight away initially, but then to find out that it wasn't her, this poor family. 

[00:13:18] Adam Cox: Yeah, I just, because they've had to come to some peace or perhaps they never did because there was no body or nothing's been found. Do you still have an element of hope of finding them because of that? 

[00:13:28] And then to hear that there could be someone alive, that must have tore them apart and then that being let down again. But then why would they need to go and visit? Because they have not Surely there's another way to just get on the phone or whatever. It felt like a lot of, effort, which could be confirmed a lot easier. 

[00:13:43] Kyle Risi: Sure. It could be that they needed to just be very careful with it. Hence why the secret service was involved in it. I don't know. But the thing is though, there must have been something there, wherever this tip came from, it caused the Italian magistrates to get a judge to present a formal request to the Vatican asking them to [00:14:00] cooperate with the investigation and release any documents relating to Emanuela Orlandi.

[00:14:04] So the tip that they received must have been strong enough for them to initiate that through a judge. Surprise, surprise, the Vatican promptly denied their request. 

[00:14:13] Magistrates do end up sending two more letters, so they're committed. They really want to follow up on these leads. The first was another summons for the Vatican to release any documents relating to Emanuela Orlandi. The second was a request to question three people of the church, Cardinals Agostino Casaroli, Angelo Sodano and Giovanni Battista. Again, those requests were all denied as well. 

[00:14:36] Adam Cox: How does the Vatican get away with denying these requests? I appreciate it's the 90s and some of the things that came on, like the child sex abuse scandal with the Catholic Church hasn't come out yet. How are they able for even the magistrates request to get denied? 

[00:14:51] Kyle Risi: Well, you're forgetting something that we covered in the beginning, right? When we're talking about who the Vatican was and how they exist, they are a completely separate nation state. [00:15:00] So it'd be like Germany asking the United Kingdom for information on a particular case. They're not obligated to do so, right? 

[00:15:07] Adam Cox: Yeah, fair. Okay. But you just think I don't know, in a criminal investigation.

[00:15:12] Kyle Risi: Yeah, you'd expect someone to at least be cooperative and they're just not. Especially when it's one of their own. She was a Vatican girl. Adam, it's by this point investigators had no choice but to close the case due to insufficient evidence and a lack of cooperation from the Vatican.

[00:15:27] So it's this point that we skip forward another ten years to 2004. Emmanuel's father passes away at the age of 73. He always maintained hope that of course the Vatican would eventually cooperate and lead investigators to finding Emanuella. But as time went on, with nothing from the Vatican, he just started to resent the Vatican, whom he and his family had dedicated so many years of their life to. 

[00:15:50] Before he died, he tells his son, Piedro, I was betrayed by the very people that I served. Can you imagine dedicating your entire life, holding on hope to the very [00:16:00] last minute and then having that realization? That, you know what, the people that I served for generations is just screwing us over. 

[00:16:07] Adam Cox: Yeah, they have no care for us.

[00:16:09] Kyle Risi: No, no regard. Yeah. And they're supposed to be the head of the Catholic faith, for God's sake.

[00:16:15] Things are about to change because in 2005, Pope John Paul II, he dies. And less than a month after the Pope's funeral, A brand new witness emerges, a reporter named Raffaella Notoralli. 

[00:16:29] Raffaella Now there's two Raphaels going to be in this story. This is the first reporter. Now she'd worked for a very popular Italian TV program which is translated to Who Has Seen. I get the impression it's very much like maybe Crime Watch or something like that or Uncovering Corruption and things like that.

[00:16:45] She receives a curious message on her answer phone message. It said, to find the solution to the case, investigate Who is buried in the crypt of Santa Apollyonaire Basilica. And the favour that Renatino did for Cardinal Ugo [00:17:00] Pelletti at the time. 

[00:17:01] So basically, just to translate, received a message, find out who is buried in this particular crypt, in this basilica, and find out what's going about the favor that person buried there did for this cardinal guy.

[00:17:15] Adam Cox: Okay, and this has come from another source that's come forward. 

[00:17:17] Kyle Risi: It's a random source on this woman's answering phone message. 

[00:17:20] Adam Cox: And so anonymous source, I'm guessing. 

[00:17:22] Kyle Risi: So basically, This basilica is directly next to Emanuela's music school, and of course, it's the last confirmed place that Emanuela was seen alive. More importantly, this basilica is a Vatican owned church. The tip was pointing them to a tomb there, so whoever the tomb belonged to was going to be someone quite significant. Not just anyone can be buried there unless, of course, you're well connected to the church, right?

[00:17:46] Interestingly though, when they went to investigate, it turned out to belong to one of Rome's most infamous and feared gangsters, a mob guy called Enrico De Pedis. He's known as the King of [00:18:00] Rome, but also, as the tip stated, Renatino. Okay. 

[00:18:05] So, the question was, how did an Italian mafia boss, become to be buried in a Vatican owned tomb. Yeah, that's a good point. This could only happen if they were somehow affiliated. 

[00:18:19] Throughout the 1970s and 80s, Enrico De Pedis was the boss of a mafia gang called Banda de Magliana. This leads Raffaella to a woman called Sabrina, Minardi, who had been dating De Pellis between 1983 and 1984. 

[00:18:34] She tracks Sabrina to a small apartment in Rome. When she gets there, she asks the doorman which flat she lived in, but the doorman tells her that Sabrina hadn't lived there for years. So, of course, she wasn't buying this. So she waited until the doorman left for lunch and then slipped into the building proceeding to go door to door .

[00:18:50] Eventually, she knocks on one of the doors where she is met by a real gruff voice from the other side asking who's there. She said she was [00:19:00] Huacin, and was looking for Sabrina Minardi. 

[00:19:02] The door immediately swings open. The woman proceeds to pat her down, checking for any recording devices, before ushering her inside. 

[00:19:08] She told Raffaella that she met Enrico De Pedis in a piano bar in 1983, when she was just 23 years old. At the time he was already a big time gangster involved in all manner of organized crimes that included drugs, illegal gambling, money laundering, even political terrorism.

[00:19:25] Sabrina insisted that when she met DePerez she had no clue who he was. She didn't learn who Trudy was until about a month after they started dating when she saw his face in a paper under the headline that he was wanted for eight murders. 

[00:19:40] Oh wow.

[00:19:41] She says she confronted him about it but apparently he told her they had never hurt or killed anyone. Sabrina says in that moment she believed him and before the realization had set in that he was just full of shit, she becomes swept up in his world. 

[00:19:55] Adam Cox: I like that he had the confidence. Even though he's like, he's the king of this mob. [00:20:00] To go like, yeah, I've never killed anyone. Who, me? I've asked for people to be killed. 

[00:20:04] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:20:05] Adam Cox: But I haven't killed them myself. 

[00:20:06] Kyle Risi: And I've always offered them to die. Would you like to die? And they've all said yes. 

[00:20:10] So she goes on to say that one exceptionally hot summer day in 1983, and we know that Emanuella went missing during a notorious heat wave in Rome, Sabrina says that she and De Pedis went to a lake outside of Rome. There they met with De Pedis's personal driver. 

[00:20:24] She says she remembered the driver pulling a young girl out the back of his car and at the time she had no idea this was Emanuella. All she knew is what her boyfriend told her, and that was that they needed to take the girl to Sabrina's family home that they owned in a place called Torvenica, just outside of Rome.

[00:20:40] Sabrina agrees, and so they set off. She says that they locked Emanuella in a bedroom at the back of the house and kept herself far removed from what was going on, just ignoring the people that were constantly coming and going. 

[00:20:50] She does mention that there was another woman, called Adelaide who would come and go and her role seemed to be caring for this girl that they were holding captive, [00:21:00] feeding her, bathing her, but also medicating her with pills to make her behave essentially.

[00:21:05] Adam Cox: Wow, so what is Sabrina thinking then? Does she know exactly what's going on? Or is it more like Afterwards she put two and two together. 

[00:21:12] Kyle Risi: I think she, obviously she's in this world. So she knows the types of things that they're Getting involved in. She does say that whenever she was in the vicinity of the room, she would hear Emanuella moaning, and she moaned a lot, but she never asked any questions. 

[00:21:26] She knew that whatever the answer was, it was probably just going to be something horrific. Right. Allegedly, Sabrina only discovered who the girl was when she saw the missing posters up and around Rome.

[00:21:37] After this, the Pettis ordered that the girl's hair be cut. So that's quite telling really, because you probably, as soon as they see these posters, they're probably now trying to disguise her identity. Sabrina says that they stayed at this house outside of Rome for another 10 days before then transporting her to another house in Rome, which had a huge basement.

[00:21:58] A few days after this, Sabrina says [00:22:00] that she and De Pedis were enjoying a few drinks at a bar in Rome when a Renault pulled up driven by a woman with Emanuella inside.

[00:22:07] The Renault apparently parked up near a green BMW, and De Pedis then handed Sabrina the keys to the BMW and instructed her to take the girl to a Vatican petrol station where she would then be met by someone with a Vatican City license plate who would then take her from there. 

[00:22:23] Adam Cox: The green BMW rings a bell. You said remember that in part one. Who owns that? 

[00:22:28] Kyle Risi: So when the missing report was first logged, there were two independent eyewitnesses. They saw someone that matched Emanuela's description talking to someone in a green BMW. Right, okay. So, I don't know if that's connected. It could be. Could be a different BMW. BMWs are quite common. Yeah, it seems to implicate that car. 

[00:22:46] Adam Cox: Yeah scenario and because green cars Quite rare. Yeah, they're not that common. So that is less Italy I don't know. Yeah, maybe a lot of green cars in Italy and maybe back in the 80s or whatever it was but Nowadays, it's quite [00:23:00] uncommon to see a green car 

[00:23:00] Kyle Risi: So Sabrina agrees she drives Emanuela to the Vatican petrol station, which is around 300 meters from the actual Vatican gates She remembered the route that she had to drive vividly because it's known for its many turns and bends in the road.

[00:23:13] She also says that she contemplated letting Emanuela go in that moment but couldn't bring herself to do it out of fear. When she arrived at the petrol station, a black Mercedes, as instructed, did pull up. A priest got out, took the girl, and they drove away. A priest? He was in full get up. 

[00:23:32] Adam Cox: I feel like if you're going to be, I don't know, undercover, a bit secretive, you don't go out in your priest gear.

[00:23:38] Kyle Risi: I guess not, I guess, but I mean this is in the vicinity of the Vatican, so maybe it's a way of blending in, because that could be one of thousands of people, do you know what I mean? Yeah, 

[00:23:46] Adam Cox: I don't know, but I think if you're just transporting someone who's missing, try and be a little bit more low key. But there, fair enough, as maybe it's like hiding in plain sight, people aren't going to question that. 

[00:23:55] Kyle Risi: So after this, Sabrina returns to the bar. She's angry at what she'd just been [00:24:00] forced to do. She told him that she knew the girl was Emanuela because, of course, she'd seen all the posters in and around the city. He'd tell her what was going on and in response to Pettis goes, Sabrina. It's all a game of power. Don't you get that? 

[00:24:16] Adam Cox: And I'd be like, that's great, but that doesn't give me an answer. No, it doesn't. What does that mean?

[00:24:22] Kyle Risi: So, Raffaella, she believes her, but she is a little bit convinced that maybe she might have embellished some of the parts of the story purely to make herself look less guilty. I don't know. I think Sabrina was full in on this. I think she was a mafia wife, like, she is, don't mess with that bitch. Possibly, 

[00:24:36] Adam Cox: yeah, and then over time she's kind of felt remorseful. For sure. And so she's only felt confident enough to come forward after the Pope had died. 

[00:24:46] Kyle Risi: She didn't come forward, right? Raffaella went and found her based on the tip that she received about checking the gravestone. 

[00:24:53] Adam Cox: Right. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:24:54] Kyle Risi: So maybe she was eager to speak. I mean, it sounds like she had been holding on to this for a long time, but she wasn't the one [00:25:00] who actually came forward.

[00:25:01] Adam Cox: Fine, okay, that's interesting then. Because that kind of suggests that this person was willing to go to her grave, I guess. But, if, you know, opportunity presents itself, she will confess. 

[00:25:11] Kyle Risi: So Raffaella goes off, she breaks the news in the media, which results in the Italian police bringing Sabrina in for questioning. They then retrace the route down that road that Sabrina described to the Vatican petrol station, and they find that her testimony is largely accurate. 

[00:25:24] However If you asked me to describe the route from here down the Roxham Road, I'd pretty much be able to tell you almost exactly what it was like. So I don't know how that proves that, oh, she definitely went down that road. Yeah, she probably did. She lived there. Yeah, exactly. It's just silly. 

[00:25:39] So they also confirm, however, the existence of the apartment with the huge basement in Rome. It is exactly as she described it. They also discovered that the person who previously owned the house was heavily connected with the Mafia in the past.

[00:25:52] And this was a major lead in the case. And so as a result, in 2008, the investigation reopens the case. So they've got [00:26:00] something. 

[00:26:00] Adam Cox: And has Sabrina got anything to gain from this by giving this information? I'm just trying to work out if there is a motive for her.

[00:26:07] Kyle Risi: Honestly, I don't know. I don't think so. I think it's just a lot of time has passed. Her lover is gone. She's no longer part of the mafia. She's got very little to be afraid of in the documentary that you can watch on Netflix. The Vatican girl. She's fully on camera. She's not disguising her voice like some of the other characters are so I think like she's quite happy to come forward. Yeah, she's got nothing to be afraid of. 

[00:26:29] Adam Cox: And it's Is there any chance that the Mafia could attack her? 

[00:26:33] Kyle Risi: It depends how relevant it is. I honestly think that there's a different set of Mafia bosses in place now. 

[00:26:39] Adam Cox: Because I was listening to a podcast about a guy that used to be in the Mafia and organised crime and to leave it's quite a big deal because you have to say, you're getting out, and then even when you get out, there's this kind of suspicion that you could be, I don't know, you could turn on them, or whatever, or blackmail them, or whatever, if you do get involved with the police, you might offer up information.

[00:26:59] Kyle Risi: Honestly, I just [00:27:00] think it's a different generation now. This is almost 30 years later. We know the Pettus at this point is dead anyway, so he's not in the equation, possibly she has less fear, there's still some fear there, because of course she's checking for wires and stuff.

[00:27:13] Adam Cox: Exactly, and then obviously it's been printed, so it's did she know that was going to happen? And now she's in on a documentary. I don't know, it just seems a bit odd.

[00:27:21] Kyle Risi: My hunch says that the Mafia took Emanuela following the collapse of Banco Ambrosia, did the mob kill Roberto Calvi and hang him under Blackfriars as a warning to the Vatican and then use Emanuella as a way of recovering some of the lost money? Remember what De Pedis told Sabrina? It's all a game of power. Don't you get that? So I think that sounds plausible. I think for the first time we have the mafia link in this case. It wasn't the case before. 

[00:27:45] Adam Cox: Yeah, but then why does Emanuela, hold leverage over the Vatican?

[00:27:50] Kyle Risi: This is the next question, right? So if this is all true, then the biggest question is When Sabrina handed Emanuela over to the Vatican, why was she [00:28:00] never reunited with her family? What did the Vatican do with Emanuela? 

[00:28:04] Exactly. 

[00:28:05] Now feels like a perfect time to take a quick break, and when we get back, we'll explore the explosive testimonies, the cryptic graves, and how stolen Vatican documents could hold the key to this 40 year mystery.

[00:28:18] So Adam, we're back. 

[00:28:22] So the police spend of course the next couple years looking into this mob connection. This is the first time. But of course things are difficult. It wasn't until 2012 when the chief exorcist of the Vatican, of all people, of all titles to have, I am the chief exorcist of the Vatican.

[00:28:40] It's not the worst title. So this is a guy called Father Gabriel and he said during an interview when quizzed about the disappearance of Emanuela and this connection between the Mafia and the Vatican. 

[00:28:51] He said the Prince of Darkness, i. e. Satan, can infiltrate even the highest echelons of the Christian hierarchy. No one is immune [00:29:00] from the devil's temptations, not even the Pope.

[00:29:03] He then goes on to say, there is a satanic sect within the Vatican itself and that satanic sect was responsible for Emanuela's disappearance. 

[00:29:12] Adam Cox: So he's just come out and said like, yeah, it was us. 

[00:29:15] Kyle Risi: But he's saying there's a satanic sect though. What are they doing? Do they sacrifice Emanuela? 

[00:29:21] Adam Cox: Oh, yeah, that's quite dark. But I, what I read is, you could take that literally or figuratively. Figuratively, that people are a bit corrupt. 

[00:29:29] Kyle Risi: Correct. And I'll take it in that way. The devil can corrupt minds. Yeah, even in the church and they are responsible for Emanuela's disappearance. I 100 percent get that. 

[00:29:39] Adam Cox: Absolutely. 

[00:29:39] Kyle Risi: He says that a 15-year-old girl does not get into a car if she does not know the person inviting her to get in. I think investigations into Emmanuel's disappearance were necessary inside, not outside the Vatican.

[00:29:52] I think that only someone that Emmanuel knew well. Could have convinced her to get in their car and made her disappear. 

[00:29:58] So this is [00:30:00] explosive. This is a big thing for him to say. So this has us wondering about the secret that Emanuela confided in her friend in part one, where Emanuela says a senior member of the church, someone very close to the Pope, molested her. in the lead up to her going missing , 

[00:30:15] Adam Cox: And so do we think it's the guy that molested her that got her into the the car?

[00:30:19] Kyle Risi: the reality is we don't know who he is. 

[00:30:21] Adam Cox: Yeah. Okay, awful as that is, is that enough to actually, kidnap and hide someone? Because think of all the other things that the Catholic Church have done, and they were willing to hide. 

[00:30:34] Kyle Risi: But is this just another one of those, right? I have a couple theories, is it perhaps why the Mafia targeted Emanuele in the first place? Did they know that by kidnapping a girl who had been molested by someone high up in the Vatican this would give them more leverage in negotiating the return of their lost money? Could this also answer why the mafia handed over Emmanuel to the Vatican and why she was never reunited with her family?

[00:30:57] If they did, would this incident of a [00:31:00] senior member of the church, Melesna, then come to light because she's such a big story now, did they need to make sure that never happened? 

[00:31:07] Adam Cox: True because I guess you've got the police, well they're going to ask her, you know, where have you been? And ask the Mafia, why did you take her? 

[00:31:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:31:13] Adam Cox: And they're going to go, oh, speak to the Vatican. 

[00:31:16] Kyle Risi: So I think there's some plausibility in that.

[00:31:19] So following the Pope's death, Pope Francis is of course elected as Pope in 2013. Of course, I think we had one more Pope before him. So he brings with him this promise of reforming the church and increasing transparency in order to rectify the Vatican's shady reputation. 

[00:31:36] The feeling from investigators and Emanuela's family is that this might finally be a chance to get the Vatican to finally cooperate in this case.

[00:31:43] But following the Pope's first Sunday mass service, The Orlandi family approaches the Pope, excited and hopeful to meet him. Manuela's mother, Maria, introduces herself and waited expectedly for like a warm reply. Instead, Pope Francis says, [00:32:00] Emanuella is in heaven. 

[00:32:01] At first, they are taken aback, not sure, like, had they heard him correctly? After a moment of stunned silence, Frederica then said that she and the rest of the family were still hopeful Emanuella might return to them one day. The Pope nodded and replied, Emanuela is in heaven. 

[00:32:18] Adam Cox: So he reiterated that. 

[00:32:20] Kyle Risi: Oh, one more time. Pedro then echoes exactly what his sister says, but once again, the Pope responds, Emanuela is in heaven.

[00:32:27] He's saying very little here. So investigators and the family, they were wrong. The Pope wasn't interested. Did he know something he was trying to keep hidden? something that would potentially expose the church? Or did he just feel that after all this time, Emanuela was indeed in heaven?

[00:32:44] I mean, that's plausible to think that to a degree, but 

[00:32:47] Adam Cox: I guess it's been 30 odd years or something like that. And yeah, maybe there's a high chance, or strongest chance, that's probably the case. 

[00:32:55] Kyle Risi: But if they had been cooperative from the very beginning, but because their lack of [00:33:00] cooperation, this makes you just speculate, why would you just say that? It sounds suspicious. 

[00:33:04] So in May of 2015, the case was closed again for the same reason as the first lack of evidence, lack of progress and lack of cooperation from the Vatican. But things were about to change.

[00:33:18] Basically one evening someone clearly on the inside of the Vatican used a set of keys to enter the Vatican Prefecture of Economic Affairs in Rome. They then used a blowtorch and managed to gain entry into one of 15 massive steel safes. They targeted this particular safe because it contained some very specific documents that the thief was interested in obtaining.

[00:33:42] These documents included a dossier on political scandals, financial investments, and as a wild card, relations with the Masons. 

[00:33:50] Okay. 

[00:33:51] So this was pretty much considered a pretty serious theft, but of course the Vatican made sure that the break in was essentially covered up. Eventually, these [00:34:00] documents would be found and handed over to the Vatican, but not before journalist Emiliano Fittipaldi. was able to make copies of these which he later then released as part of a larger scandal called Vati Leaks.

[00:34:12] interestingly, the Vatican never denied the break-in or the specifics about the documents that were stolen, but they did deny the legitimacy of one file.

[00:34:23] Now, the problem with that is, it's bullshit. Because it's been proven that this document was prepared by the Vatican office responsible for managing church properties and finances. their signature is physically on the final page of this document. So if it was fake, they forged this signature.

[00:34:40] The document was titled summary statement of expenses incurred by the vatican for activities relating to citizen emmanuela orlandi what in those words in those words that's the title of this document 

[00:34:52] Adam Cox: Oh shit i mean that's that's clearly 

[00:34:56] Kyle Risi: Proof. Do you wanna hear what the document said?

[00:34:58] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:34:59] Kyle Risi: It [00:35:00] says, the Prefecture of the Administration of the Partonomy of the Apostle C has made a mandate to draft a summary document of the economic services required to support the activities carried out following the removal from home and the phases following citizen Emanuela Orlandi.

[00:35:19] The relevant section under my supervision has collected the materials through the state actors who have interacted with this matter. Many limitations in the reconstruction of these details were found in tracing documentation relating to the support agents used on Italian soil, however Given the prohibition imposed on me to directly question those sources, it has been difficult for me to pull a wider picture.

[00:35:44] Basically, he's saying there, that he has tried to find a summary of all the expenses incurred. There are some areas of the Vatican and different jurisdictions that he doesn't have, privilege to investigate or question, and therefore those bits are missing. 

[00:35:57] Adam Cox: Right, so he's trying to do a report, and he [00:36:00] can't gather all the expenses it's interesting that they would have even a document of this. You'd think that they would have no written evidence if this is a true document. 

[00:36:08] Kyle Risi: It says that the analysis activity is divided into time periods relevant to events and expenses incurred. Here are some of them that I think tell a really compelling story. 

[00:36:17] Preparations for foreign investigative activity. 450, 000 lira. 

[00:36:23] Fees, food, accommodation at 167 Chapman Road, London. 8 million lira. 

[00:36:30] Formal investigation costs in collaboration with Rome. 230, 000 lira. Does that mean that they were investigating and they've just been keeping it quiet? 

[00:36:40] Adam Cox: And this is a lot of money and so it sounds like they were keeping her in London. 

[00:36:44] Kyle Risi: Travel and accommodation expenses. At six Ella Dale road, London NW three, six NB 18 million Lira. So this is accommodation and travel expenses for this other house. So there's two houses involved here. 

[00:36:57] Investigative activity relating to [00:37:00] the diversion with the use of support agencies for analysis in Italy, 9000 lira. 

[00:37:05] The next one is summary of expenses for tuition and education that amounts to 170 million lira and then clinical expenses at St Mary's hospital in London, 3 million lira.

[00:37:19] Now I'm going to stop there because there's one other final piece but basically, If we put all these expenses together, what they tell us is that after Emanuela disappeared in 1983, Emanuela was not only alive, but she was living inside the Vatican, between 1983 and 1983, She was moved to London, England.

[00:37:40] The first accommodation listed on that expense list is a youth hostel for girls run by the church specifically for migrants refugees and other displaced people. 

[00:37:52] Adam Cox: So trafficking people 

[00:37:53] Kyle Risi: I don't know if they've been trafficked as such they could just be refugees but it's people who don't necessarily have an identity [00:38:00] or maybe have been displaced. So this journalist Emanuela he decides that he's gonna fly to London to see if anyone there can provide any information on whether or not Emmanuel was actually there. 

[00:38:10] But, surprise, no one claimed to know anything about Emanuela. However, it was over 30 years ago at this point, so that's potentially plausible. I would expect that they might have something in their archives, but no.

[00:38:23] Adam Cox: And she might have even gone by a different name at that point, so it probably wasn't even obvious that if she was there. If you're trying 

[00:38:28] Kyle Risi: to hide, if you've trafficked someone out of the 

[00:38:30] Adam Cox: country, you're probably going to assume her under a different 

[00:38:32] Kyle Risi: identity, 

[00:38:33] Adam Cox: right? She probably has a different passport, all these things.

[00:38:36] Kyle Risi: The interesting thing is that if this document is legitimate, which I think it is, it contained a verifiable signature of the person who prepared the file, right? 

[00:38:43] But the most heartbreaking aspect of this expense list is that it also indicates that Emmanuel Orlandi died in 1997 because the last expense record on that file specifically documented as general activity and transfer to Vatican City [00:39:00] State with related final formalities, 21 million lira. 

[00:39:05] This indicates that Emanuella possibly died in London, her body was then returned to the Vatican, where according to that document and that expense claim, is where she was then buried, the final formalities.

[00:39:16] Adam Cox: So they kept her in London. This is what it's suggesting, but what could she have been doing and to keep her hidden for so long? Mm hmm. And then it sounds like they perhaps just didn't kill her, but she died of whatever causes, I'm assuming. And they don't want her buried in a regular church because it could be easily exhumed. So I'm assuming they want to put her in the Vatican. 

[00:39:38] Kyle Risi: So it is a somber thought that she may be buried just a short distance away from where her family was living. And they had been waiting over three decades for answers. How disgusting is that, if that is true? 

[00:39:49] Adam Cox: Yeah. And I'm assuming after the release of this, did they get permission to go look or 

[00:39:55] Kyle Risi: Well. I don't know. It's a saga, and we are dealing with the Vatican Church, so there's more to come. 

[00:39:59] Adam Cox: They're not going to [00:40:00] open up their doors, I doubt. 

[00:40:01] Kyle Risi: Nope. So does this mean that Pope Francis knew? That she was indeed in heaven, when he said that to the family. The document seems to indicate that she was being held at the Vatican before being moved to London. Was she moved to London rather than being released back to her parents because the Vatican was trying to hide a secret?

[00:40:18] I somehow think, in light of the collapse of the Banco Ambrosiano, the Mafia learned this and used this as leverage over the Vatican. I'm convinced of it. 

[00:40:28] Adam Cox: If they hadn't have taken her, because it was them that probably took her by the sounds of things.

[00:40:33] Kyle Risi: Sounds like it, if you trust Sabrina's testimony. 

[00:40:35] Adam Cox: Yeah, then this probably would never have happened. She would have probably never has it gone to anyone or they would have laughed it off. But because the mafia got involved. Yeah. Because they wanted revenge or, over what had happened. They just wanted their money back. Yeah. That's probably, I don't know, sealed her fate. 

[00:40:51] Kyle Risi: Mm. Knowing everything that we know about the Catholic Church, like over and over around the world, priests of all faiths, been [00:41:00] molesting kids for decades, for years. 

[00:41:03] Adam Cox: Well, that's the thing, because they, the whole child abuse scandal that came out, and I think this was early 2010s as well, That kind of, there were so many people that came forward.

[00:41:12] And, I don't know if you remember from when we covered the nuns on the run story. There was a guy there, Bishop Roger Van Lui. So he was the one that was wanting to get back all the artefacts that the nuns had stolen and he was involved in, I think, the Church of Bruges at the time. 

[00:41:27] Kyle Risi: Sure, I remember.

[00:41:28] Adam Cox: But he had a story uncovered about him because he had been molesting his, his nephew at the time and had been doing it for years and years. It was only one of his nephew's friend that basically, called it out and drew a lot of attention, but he never got prosecuted. The church were well aware that he was doing this for years, the reason he didn't get prosecuted is because the incident was so many years old, he's now just living his life in retirement.

[00:41:56] Kyle Risi: It's so disgusting. And that's the thing though, Adam, no priest has ever been [00:42:00] voluntarily reported to local authorities from inside the church, ever. It's only when they are finally exposed and they can no longer contain the fallout that they are forced to then do so.

[00:42:10] They always just continue to protect their own, and I think potentially that's what's been happening here. 

[00:42:14] Adam Cox: It seems like it. 

[00:42:15] Kyle Risi: And the family, they have mixed emotions about this expense report, not necessarily because of the content, but more because of its very existence.

[00:42:23] The Vatican always refused to involve itself in Emanuela's disappearance. If this document is real, it proves the Vatican had been lying this entire time. Every time they asked the Vatican anything, their attitude was always exclusively defensive. We have nothing to do with this.

[00:42:38] This shows cruelty and indifference to the suffering of others, especially by people that are really close to the church, this family that are dedicated generations of their lives to serving. It's just sick. 

[00:42:50] We're now going to jump through to september 2017 when a former mob boss in charge alongside de pedis called Abatino confirmed that [00:43:00] his Mafia gang was indeed responsible for Emanuela's disappearance. So now you have De Pedis second in command confirming that was the case.

[00:43:11] And the reason why this is only coming to light now is because in 1992 Maurizio was arrested and to avoid jail time He agreed to cooperate with authorities and snitch on a bunch of his mates following this He was placed into witness protection until the early 2010s. 

[00:43:25] Now when he re emerged another journalist also so happened to be called Raffaella. This Fenella She was desperate to interview him in connection to Emanuela's disappearance and to cooperate Sabrina's testimony. 

[00:43:40] Initially, he refused, but eventually after messaging him every single day for two years, he finally agreed to speak. 

[00:43:46] Adam Cox: Wow, she was persistent.

[00:43:47] Kyle Risi: He is committed. 

[00:43:49] He says that he personally had nothing to do with, of course, Emanuela's disappearance, but he knew she was taken by Enrico de Pedis and only found out about this later on after he received a visit from one of [00:44:00] his gang cronies in prison. 

[00:44:02] He said that Enrico de Pedis orchestrated the kidnapping to extort ransom from the Vatican after they'd invested money that they had lost Banco Ambrosiano.

[00:44:14] So you have someone here who's physically said what people have been speculating about. He's corroborated Sabrina's testimony and this line of inquiry, right? 

[00:44:24] Adam Cox: The only thing is could he be confirming the speculation because someone came to prison and they're like, oh, yeah This is the talk of what's going on I guess it is just hearsay to a level but you've got someone else that is at least corroborating it Yeah, 

[00:44:38] Kyle Risi: yeah, because it was quite a big story at the time. Maybe these are just Confirmed beliefs that people have held on to yeah, and it could that could even apply to people in the mob, right? 

[00:44:47] Adam Cox: Yeah, and it's almost like if it's a rumor that goes about enough. It almost maybe seems true. 

[00:44:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah Do you know what? I never thought of it like that when I read it I just thought wow another person's cooperate, but you're right.

[00:44:58] Adam Cox: And what's in it for him to [00:45:00] now reveal to the press that yes, he served his time and he wants to get this Raffaella chick to just stop emailing him. But I don't know, you would just ignore it, wouldn't you? So is he just like, Oh, I'll give her something which at least, you know, gets her off my back.

[00:45:13] Kyle Risi: I don't know. I believe it. I believe it.

[00:45:16] So the following year, the Orlandi family are being represented by a new lawyer. Her name is Laura Sergo. She arrives at her office one day and finds a anonymously written letter with instructions on where they could find Emanuela's body. 

[00:45:29] In the envelope was a photograph of an angel statue in a cemetery, but no information about where it was. The instructions specifically said, if you want to find Emanuela, search for where the angel is. Eventually, the photograph leads to the Teutonic Cemetery, which is the only graveyard in the Vatican. 

[00:45:50] All the other burial spots are like lime grottoes or tombs, etc. this cemetery in the Vatican was located just a few hundred metres [00:46:00] away from the apartment where the Orlandi family were living.

[00:46:02] Isn't that gross? 

[00:46:04] In the cemetery, there are two tombs situated side by side, both with statues, belonging to two German princesses that were entombed there in the 1800s. Now, Laura petitions the Vatican to dig up the tombs, but surprise, surprise, the Vatican outright denies the request, so it's just a dead end. 

[00:46:22] But while all of this is going on, Laura herself is also serving as a defense attorney in the infamous Valli Leaks court case that we were talking about, right?

[00:46:33] This is one of the biggest stories, not just in Italy, in the world. It's really serious and there are hundreds and hundreds of lawyers working on this case. Because of the seriousness of this case and how it incriminated the Vatican in all sorts of corruption allegations. She was able to use this to obtain an exhumation order for those two tombs.

[00:46:56] So now the Vatican had to comply. They [00:47:00] couldn't ignore this. They couldn't just go silent. They couldn't just deny it. It was now mandated in light of the valley leaks case. Mm-hmm . 

[00:47:07] So on July the 11th. 2019 the Vatican was ordered to open up the two graves in the Teutonic Cemetery. It was going to be the first time in history that a consecrated tomb on Vatican soil was going to be opened. In attendance were the Orlandi family, Laura Sergo, multiple Vatican attorneys, the commander of the city's armed police forces, a handful of priests, and also the descendants of the two German princesses whose graves they were physically digging up.

[00:47:37] Adam Cox: Yeah, they were like, is that granny? 

[00:47:39] Kyle Risi: When they opened the tombs, what do you think they found? 

[00:47:42] Adam Cox: I want to say nothing. 

[00:47:43] Kyle Risi: Adam, literally nothing. Nothing. Not even the remains of the two princesses who were supposed to have been buried there. Now, the Vatican claims that this instance was going to be the first time that two consecrated graves would ever be opened in its history. In fact, that's what they [00:48:00] used to argue against it. It's very clear that that was not the first time. Someone has opened that grave and removed even the original bodies that were in there. 

[00:48:08] Adam Cox: That's what I mean, like, where are they? Because they would have been there. 

[00:48:10] Kyle Risi: Yeah, they're gone. Completely empty. 

[00:48:13] Adam Cox: And so what is, what's Vatican's thoughts about that going on? Oh, I don't know. We don't know. Misplaced them. 

[00:48:17] Kyle Risi: Everyone's just, gasp, gasp.

[00:48:21] So it says to me that in all those delays, in all the back and forth, when the Vatican knew that shit was looming, someone snuck in there in the middle of the night. and they emptied those tombs because they potentially contained something of vital importance. Mmm, I bet. Because why else would they be empty, right?

[00:48:38] Yeah. 

[00:48:39] So it seems like this was finally the last lead. There was nothing more they could do. No more lines of inquiry. You That was until another witness came forward. His name was Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigo, who in 1983 was working as a personal secretary to the cardinal of the [00:49:00] state secretariat.

[00:49:01] You can imagine this guy as the prime Minister of the Vatican. He shows up at Laura's office and tells her that on the night that Emmanuel disappeared around 8:00 PM Remember her family did not report her missing. Until well after 9. 30, right? In fact, they didn't even lodge the actual official missing reports case until the next day.

[00:49:23] He says that the Vatican press office received a phone call from the kidnappers. They informed them that one of their citizens had been kidnapped. So whoever kidnapped her knew exactly where to call and they knew exactly who she was. 

[00:49:35] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:49:36] Kyle Risi: And that they would be released when the Vatican fulfilled their request. He says that he passes this message on to the department, which they promptly deem as a hoax. He tries to convince them to take it seriously, but he couldn't go against someone that was higher up than him.

[00:49:50] So he had to just let it go. 

[00:49:52] But he can't remember what the specific request was, which I think is a pretty fucking big detail to just somehow forget. [00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Adam Cox: Yeah, because I feel like this is obviously a very important call, and you've just forgotten a detail. Yeah. So is it true then?

[00:50:07] Kyle Risi: I think he's credible, and this is the reason why. Only because when the whole Valley Leaks scandal broke back in 2012, this big old court case, which I think, do you know what, probably needs its own episode, Carlo, the guy who received this call, he was the highest ranking official involved in publicising and co reporting the leaked documents.

[00:50:27] He's also heavily criticized Pope Francis and others for covering up sexual abuse allegations against various cardinals, including cardinal Theodore McCarrick, who was later implicated in the fallout of the Boston Globe reporting sexual abuse within the Catholic Church.

[00:50:43] He was accused of sexually assaulting young men for decades, going as far back as the 1970s. He was finally defrocked in 2019, but this was only because Carlo had made such a massive fuss about it, right? So he's, he's not with the church. Yes, he's [00:51:00] a, It's a faithful Catholic, but he's almost against the corrupt activity that they're doing. And therefore, I think that adds credibility to it. He was of course, eventually excommunicated by the Pope only this year in 2024 for trying to lead a schism. 

[00:51:15] So Carlo is a do gooder. He's focused on exposing the church for their wrongdoing. And part of me believes that he's telling the truth about their phone call saying that the Vatican knew someone had kidnapped Emanuela Orlandi. And I think based on everything we know up to now, Sabrina's testimony, the confession from the Mafia boss, all the money that was lost during the collapse of the bank, I believe That call came from the Mafia. 

[00:51:41] Adam Cox: So my question is, how did the Mafia know that it's Emanuella that was the sort of, the victim of this? And the only people that knew were the guy that molested her, and her friend who she confided in. So is her friend somehow connected to the Mafia for them to find out? 

[00:51:58] Kyle Risi: So in the 2022 [00:52:00] docu series, The Vatican Girl, in the fourth episode, we get that revelation from Emanuela's best friend, who had kept the secret that she was molested. I doubt she had any links with the Vatican, let's say however, potentially. that her older brother or a family member, she went and confided to them and they had links to the mafia. That's plausible. 

[00:52:20] But she kept the secret for all these years out of shame and fear about what might happen to her. Again, the Vatican is powerful. Even in the documentary, she speaks anonymously. She also acknowledges that Whoever did molest her probably is dead and buried, but the situation transcends just one person and incriminates an entire institution.

[00:52:40] And so she still felt that she needed to protect her identity just in case the institution comes after her. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:52:48] Adam Cox: Well, yeah, the fact that they keep these records and all this sort of stuff in this vault suggests that this information is being passed down the line 

[00:52:55] Kyle Risi: So if she is telling the truth, then the question is why Emanuela?

[00:52:59] [00:53:00] mob know about the molestation and did they use this as the ultimate leverage to blackmail the Vatican to get back the Mafia money following the bank's collapse? 

[00:53:09] In 2023 as a result of the Netflix documentary. Three new investigations were launched, one by Rome's Public Prosecution office, the Parliamentary Commission and the Vatican itself.

[00:53:23] Adam Cox: Oh, they're like, oh, we should probably do something about this. 

[00:53:27] Kyle Risi: In my opinion, it's 40 years too late, man. Do you know what I mean? It's not good enough. They say that they're looking hard into all Vatican officials and they've even spoken to Emanuela's brother, Piedro, to identify people that he suspects might have been involved and they're going to look into those people.

[00:53:45] The Vatican's investigation has committed to granting their investigators complete control to investigate anyone in the Vatican, from the lowest to the highest, but let's be honest, I'm only going to believe it when I see it. Apparently those [00:54:00] findings are now in and the Vatican has said that they're going to hand over everything that they have to investigators in Rome.

[00:54:06] All we know is that the Vatican has said these files contain investigatory leads that merit further consideration. So we're just waiting for these findings to go public, basically. 

[00:54:18] Adam Cox: So they are going to give some information. I'm a little bit dubious how good it's going to be.

[00:54:23] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it might just be a damn squib, and based on their history, that's probably the kind of shit they'll try and pull. But the fact that the Vatican seems to be playing ball is interesting. Huge, in fact. Still, it's gross that they waited four decades to maybe, possibly, help the family get some closure.

[00:54:39] I just don't see them ever admitting to it. For something like this, to have hidden someone, and I don't know if I believe that they would have killed her. But they've they've kept her hidden from the family, this poor family that's had this grief for four decades. That's awful. 

[00:54:56] Since then, the investigation has uncovered audio tapes from [00:55:00] some alleged Mafia kind of gang members talking about how, the late John Paul II and his mates liked to go out in the middle of the night to fuck young girls. That was so explosive that when that was leaked on Italian television, it just went mental, people were losing their minds of it. It all just, contributed to kind of the bad reputation that the Vatican had at that time. 

[00:55:23] Adam Cox: And were they old tapes that got leaked? Yeah. So these were people in the mob. at the time around this happening and everything. 

[00:55:30] Kyle Risi: That's right. Yeah. Apparently John Paul II occasionally went out in the evenings and apparently it wasn't to bless Holmes.

[00:55:37] Adam Cox: That is really gross. It is. If that is the case.

[00:55:41] Kyle Risi: He's a really old man as well. 

[00:55:42] Adam Cox: Well, they're all old. I don't think they're really young, Pope. Yeah, gross. 

[00:55:46] Kyle Risi: And Adam, that is the story of the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi up until now. There is still more to come as these investigations reveal their findings, which will determine where it goes next. And I really [00:56:00] hope that someday that they find out what happened to Emanuela. 

[00:56:03] Adam Cox: Yeah, it feels like, you know, the family needs an answer regardless. 

[00:56:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:56:08] Adam Cox: Crazy, huh? Wow, pretty fascinating. There is a lot in that story. 

[00:56:13] Kyle Risi: So many twists and turns, but I guess because it's such an old story as well, and because it's been so highly publicized, that of course, there's going to be loads of these different theories. So we had to cover all these different avenues because the Catholic Church wasn't playing ball.

[00:56:27] So you had to look at all these different kind of leads with a certain degree of legitimacy, just in case they were legitimate. But had they spoken out and said, listen, we did get a call from this American guy, he is full of shit, just ignore it, great, we can move on, right? But the fact they didn't. says that they were probably involved. All these roads keep leading back to the Vatican. So there's no smoke without fire. 

[00:56:51] Adam Cox: If they had omitted it and said, Oh, they came out and said, Oh, there's nothing to see here. Would they get into more trouble for lying?

[00:56:58] Adam, they're getting in trouble for [00:57:00] kidnapping a young girl. Exactly, they're in trouble regardless. 

[00:57:03] Yeah. 

[00:57:04] Adam Cox: So, I guess for them, they were thinking, say nothing, don't get incriminated. It'd be like the royal family, not to say that they're involved in this kind of thing, but, you know, they would keep quiet on certain topics because it leads to more speculation or whatever. Gonna have to keep an eye on the pulse, and when this update comes. 

[00:57:22] Kyle Risi: I'll let you know. We'll probably get like an announcement going, yeah, the Vatican says, no dice!

[00:57:26] Adam Cox: Yeah, I imagine it's probably going to be a disappointing update, but let's see what happens. I'm hoping for something. 

[00:57:32] Kyle Risi: Shall we run the outro for this week? 

[00:57:33] Adam Cox: Let's do it. 

[00:57:34] Kyle Risi: And that wraps up another journey into the fascinating and intriguing on the compendium. If today's episode tickled your curiosity, then don't forget to hit that follow button on your favorite podcasting app.

[00:57:44] It makes the world of difference when you do. And for our diehard listeners next week's episode is waiting for you right on our Patreon and it is completely free. 

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[00:58:03] New episodes drop every Tuesday And until then remember the truth may be buried, but the questions never stop digging. 

[00:58:10] See you next time. 

[00:58:11] See ya