The Compendium: An Assembly of Fascinating Things

Jerry Springer: Behind the Scenes of TV’s Most Famous Fights

• Kyle Risi & Adam Cox • Season 2 • Episode 93

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In this episode of The Compendium, we explore the fascinating and chaotic world of Jerry Springer. From his beginnings as a politician to his rise as the controversial king of daytime television, we uncover the untold stories behind the Jerry Springer Show. Using our focus keyphrase "Jerry Springer," we delve into the history of the show, why it was so controversial, and how it redefined sensationalist TV. Discover the most infamous TV fights, the cultural impact of this infamous talk show, and even its transformation into an opera. Tune in for a wild ride through television history that will leave you questioning how far entertainment should go.

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, check out these great resources:

  1. Jerry Springer: The Opera (2003) - Wikipedia
  2. The Rise and Fall of Jerry Springer - The Guardian 
  3. Netflix Documentry Jerry Springer: Fights, Camera, Action - Netflix

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Credits:

[00:00:00] Adam Cox: A BBC investigation in 1998 found that 16 former guests claimed they were coached on who to hit, with some publications alleging the show had a fight quota. One guest said we acted everything. They wanted us to wrestle and throw each other around.

[00:00:16] Producer Melinda Chait told a guest, if you're gonna take your shoe off and put your sock in her mouth, do it fast or security will try and stop you. Can you believe that? I can't believe 

[00:00:27] Kyle Risi: it!

[00:00:27] If you 

[00:00:27] Adam Cox: want to do that, that's fine, but just do it real quick. 

[00:00:29] Kyle Risi: Wow! 

[00:00:56] Adam Cox: Welcome to the Compendium of Fascinating Things. We're [00:01:00] a weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. We explore stories from the darker corners of true crime, the annuls of your old unread history books, and the who's who of extraordinary people.

[00:01:13] I am your Ringmaster for this episode, Adam Cox. 

[00:01:16] Kyle Risi: And I'm the Flea Whisperer of Fables, Kyle Reesey. Flea whisperer. Yeah, man. I've got all the tricks of the trade with the fleas. I'm right in there, man You've got fleas. I Have fleas. There's a treatment for that 

[00:01:31] Jerry Chant: No, 

[00:01:32] Kyle Risi: if it's anything like Keith, he'll just freak out.

[00:01:34] He hates that flea treatment. He always licks it off That can't be good for his digestive system. 

[00:01:39] Adam Cox: Yeah, 

[00:01:39] Kyle Risi: but then it must be cat safe, right? Oh, it just stinks as well. I dunno how he manages to lick the back of his head though. Yeah, he is, he is. Got a long tongue. He's got he could be one of our acrobats.

[00:01:48] Our contortionists. 

[00:01:50] Adam Cox: He's in the show. Is he? He's our Lion. . .

[00:01:52] Kyle Risi: We should do some, some graphic images of us line taming in the circus ring, but it's [00:02:00] Keith. 

[00:02:00] Adam Cox: And he's mauling us to death. 

[00:02:02] Kyle Risi: Given half the chance, he, 

[00:02:03] Adam Cox: he would. So, in today's episode of The Compendium, we're pulling back the curtain on one of the most infamous and influential daytime TV shows of all time.

[00:02:15] A program so chaotic, it's So controversial that it became a cultural touchstone, whether you liked it or not. Whether you liked it or not? What does that mean? it wasn't to everyone's taste, but you watched it, you just couldn't turn away. that is true. I 

[00:02:30] Kyle Risi: do know what we're talking about today. 

[00:02:34] I mean, this is just iconic. You can never forget this intro, can you?

[00:02:40] Adam Cox: It's so 90s. 

[00:02:41] Kyle Risi: It is so 

[00:02:42] Adam Cox: 90s. So we are covering Jerry Springer, right? We are indeed, yeah. The Jerry Springer Show. Well, Jerry Springer himself, as well as his show. So those that either have no clue, or perhaps are too young to really appreciate the Jerry Springer Show, you can go and watch his show.

[00:02:56] Then as a bit of a summary, it was a daytime talk show that [00:03:00] aired from 1991 to 2018, and it grew to be such a phenomenon, known for its sensational and controversial topics becoming a defining example of trainwreck television. 

[00:03:11] Kyle Risi: So wait, we're talking like almost 30 years on the air.

[00:03:13] Yeah, a long time. Damn, that was probably as old as I am. I mean, give or take a couple years. Yeah, it's a fully grown adult length of time. My god. Thing is though, Jerry Springer was such a coming of age thing. Especially for me, because I remember when my parents bought me my first television set.

[00:03:32] I was much older than the regular privileged white UK kind of teenager. I grew up in South Africa, remember? You didn't just have a television in your bedroom, like you had one family television that everyone would sit around and that's what all your furniture was pointed at. And, like, when I got my first television when I moved from South Africa, it was from like a flea market for two pounds.

[00:03:52] It was so cheap. Wow. And it was a little black and white little telly. And I'd have it right by my bed, but I would turn it on like, 11 o'clock at night [00:04:00] when I was supposed to be asleep. And I would watch Jerry Springer. So that was on at late, was it then? Of course it was a real late show, it was like on Channel 4, after like I used to watch uh, Um, Eurotrash.

[00:04:10] But that's the thing that it was a daytime show 

[00:04:12] Adam Cox: in America. No! Yeah. Adam! It's not, it's not post Watershed or whatever. 

[00:04:17] Kyle Risi: No, this was late night. Like I said, late night. After South Park, it would be South Park, then Eurotrash, and then Jerry Springer. sometimes in the early hours of the morning.

[00:04:25] And like, kind of that twilight hour kind of show. 

[00:04:28] Adam Cox: Maybe they took out the bleeps at that point in time. I don't know. Probably not, actually. I remember some dirty, dirty words. Okay, then you will remember that the show's, its main format, centered around outrageous guests, dramatic confrontations, and shocking personal revelations.

[00:04:44] Episodes often featured love triangles, family disputes, infidelity, and one of the most memorable, being a man from a story, who claimed he had married a pony named Pixel. 

[00:04:54] Kyle Risi: Ah, the horse! I remember the horse one! 

[00:04:57] Adam Cox: Yep, even interspecies relationships [00:05:00] was worthy of a segment on the Jerry Springer show. 

[00:05:02] Kyle Risi: Do you know, like, when I think about Jerry Springer, the things that come to mind are, of course Jerry!

[00:05:08] Jerry Chant: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! 

[00:05:14] Kyle Risi: the incessant chanting. And that sounded scary, actually.

[00:05:21] But yeah, that was the thing that it was all around the cheering and the kind of the spectacle. But then at the same time, you had this host who was just like, he looked like a damn lawyer or a banker, just in a suit. Then he was like, surrounded by all this Just absolutely outrageous ongoings from like the plebs of society, you know, the dregs of society.

[00:05:42] And, oh my god, and the things that they used to talk about. I think the thing that I always speculated on was like, it was akin to a bit like, wrestling, whereby it was totally manufactured. Like, how much of it was actually true? Were these actual true stories? And if they were true stories, how much were they hammed up upon by, 

[00:05:59] Adam Cox: like, [00:06:00] the producers?

[00:06:00] Interesting that you say that. Why? we'll come on to that, obviously. 

[00:06:04] Kyle Risi: Okay. Oh, so it's probably all fake then. 

[00:06:06] Adam Cox: Well, um, some of it's true. A lot of it was true. It's just, you know, you've got to make entertainment. 

[00:06:12] Kyle Risi: You've got to make a compelling show, haven't you? 

[00:06:15] Adam Cox: Yeah. And what's more, the sheer absurdity of the show meant it would go on to become an opera.

[00:06:21] Kyle Risi: They made an 

[00:06:22] Adam Cox: opera out of this. The Jerry Springer Opera, which will also go on to. Is it still running? no, but it did run for quite a considerable amount of shows. Shocking. And, it started in the UK, actually. Because he's British, isn't he? he was born in Britain. 

[00:06:35] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I heard that he was born, in a bomb shelter.

[00:06:38] Adam Cox: Spoiling everything. Okay, sorry. Anyway, so today we're going to explore how the show came to be, some of its most controversial stories that led to murder, and how Gerry himself was willing to wave goodbye to a serious life in politics, and whether he sold his soul for money and making good TV.

[00:06:56] He sold his soul for good TV, man. Of course. [00:07:00] Of course you would. So first things first, let's get a bit of a backstory on the star himself. Gerald Norman Springer. He was born on February the 13th, 1944, beneath the streets of London in the Highgate Underground Station.

[00:07:13] And at the time, it was being used as a bomb shelter during the German Blitz of World War II. So, it's somewhat fitting a man that would be surrounded by chaos would enter the world during an air raid. His family were German Jews who fled the Nazis with some relatives hailing from Poland.

[00:07:29] Poland? Poland. You mean Poland? Poland, yeah. Poland. Both of Jerry's grandmothers, along with other extended family members, died in concentration camps during the Holocaust. Oh shit, really? He's even mentioned in interviews that 27 members of his family were killed by the Nazi regime. So, incredibly sad and big loss to his, wider family.

[00:07:51] Yeah. Jerry's parents had fled to London to escape the Nazi takeover about a month before the war properly broke out and he told the BBC in [00:08:00] 2012 that during World War II, it was common for women in their ninth month of pregnancy to spend nights in the underground stations, which served as a makeshift bomb shelter, hence why he was born in the underground.

[00:08:11] Kyle Risi: So was it what, just because they're so heavily pregnant, they're vulnerable, 

[00:08:14] Adam Cox: so, I think it's because, yeah, you can't run very fast can they? Exactly that, you're at least in a safe area if something did happen.

[00:08:20] Oh my 

[00:08:20] Kyle Risi: god.

[00:08:21] Adam Cox: After the war, his family spent a few more years in England, but then in 1949 His family immigrated to America on board the Queen Mary, which has itself now become famous in its own right, being one of the most haunted ships ever.

[00:08:35] Kyle Risi: Yeah, am I right in thinking it's more somewhere like in LA or something? It's now like a hotel or something, you can go visit the Queen Mary. 

[00:08:42] Adam Cox: think you can go visit, I don't know if it's a hotel there. 

[00:08:44] Kyle Risi: Uh, yeah, I think you can go stay on it. The story about the Queen Mary is so funny, because when they built the Queen Mary, the builders at the time, because it was made by the same people who made the Titanic, they approached the king at the time, which was the queen's grandfather.

[00:08:58] And they were like, we would [00:09:00] love to name our latest, starliner after the greatest queen that ever lived. he was like, Oh, you want to name it after my wife, Queen Mary? And they're like, no. No, we meant Victoria. But no one had the heart to tell him no. So he just expected to call it the Queen Mary.

[00:09:15] And hence why it's called the Queen Mary, but it was supposed to be called the Victoria. 

[00:09:18] Adam Cox: No 

[00:09:19] Kyle Risi: way. It's kind of like, of course. Yeah, the greatest queen. Yeah, the queen consul who married into the family. 

[00:09:26] Adam Cox: Wow. Didn't have a backbone to say no. 

[00:09:28] Kyle Risi: No, so he emigrated to America on the Queen Mary.

[00:09:32] Adam Cox: Yeah, and like many immigrants going to settle there, one of the first sights Jerry would see is the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of freedom and hope after the persecution his family had experienced from the war. They settled in Queens, New York, where Jerry's parents worked hard to support their family.

[00:09:48] His mum took a job at a bank and his dad sold toys as a street vendor, and they encouraged their children to embrace the American culture wholeheartedly, pushing them into activities like baseball and scouts and [00:10:00] things like that. All the American things. All the American things. So yeah, whilst he was born in the UK, he's, you know, he's pretty He's from New York!

[00:10:06] Yeah. 

[00:10:07] Kyle Risi: And Queens of all places as well. 

[00:10:09] Adam Cox: Jerry's parents also instilled a love for current events in him and his sister Evelyn, so the family often discussed politics at home, and young Jerry became fascinated by the civil rights movement. One of his defining childhood memories was watching 

[00:10:23] the 1956 Democratic National Convention on TV and be inspired by a rising political star, Senator John F. Kennedy. And after high school, Gerry headed to New Orleans to attend university, where he majored in political science. He later earned his law degree from Northwestern University in 1968, and while studying law, Springer was an intern for a local firm, but a chance encounter at a dinner party the year before would change the trajectory of his life. Ooh. Because in 1967, he met Bobby Kennedy, who was known as a bit of an icon for American liberalism. 

[00:10:59] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay. [00:11:00] Is he the, he's the brother of JFK, right? 

[00:11:02] Adam Cox: Yeah. Did you know that actually, they ended up having a very similar fate. I thought you were going to say they ended up having an affair.

[00:11:09] Kyle Risi: What do you mean similar fate like as from Jerry or do you think you mean like his brother ended up having a weird they both 

[00:11:17] Adam Cox: were assassinated were 

[00:11:19] Kyle Risi: they yeah didn't like I mean that family has been fraught with disaster like people have died in airplane crashes all sorts of things so yeah they're like a considered a cursed family aren't they 

[00:11:29] Adam Cox: Yeah, because I, one, I didn't really know they were brothers and two, I had no idea that they were both shot at from being in politics. 

[00:11:35] Kyle Risi: So what's the connection here between these two then? Jerry Springer and, JFK's brother? 

[00:11:40] Adam Cox: Well, Springer was inspired by Kennedy's vision for the country, so he signed on to work for hispresidential campaign.

[00:11:46] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay, so he's still in politics at this point. 

[00:11:48] Adam Cox: yeah, he studied law, but . he's now been, motivated by the Kennedys, basically. To the 

[00:11:52] Kyle Risi: absolute dismay of his parents. You are not gonna be a lawyer! Fine, you'll be a doctor then. No, mum and dad, I'm gonna go into [00:12:00] showbiz.

[00:12:00] Adam Cox: Well, politics first. 

[00:12:01] Kyle Risi: Politics first, then showbiz. 

[00:12:03] Adam Cox: Yeah. So Springer joined the team just in time to witness the devastating aftermath of Kennedy's assassination in 1968, and that was five years after his brother, the president, JFK, was assassinated. 

[00:12:15] Kyle Risi: Wow, okay. 

[00:12:16] Adam Cox: So these early experiences, such as his immigrant work ethic, his passion for politics, and a love for debate and performance somehow maybe lay the foundation for the type of complex and often contradictory figure Springer would go on to become.

[00:12:31] Jerry Springer himself often reflected on the values that drove him, saying that he cared about people who were struggling, who were discriminated against, who had no chance to succeed and why else be in politics unless you want to make life better for people who have nothing. That's noble. It is very noble.

[00:12:47] But then you think about what he did on his show. 

[00:12:49] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but you know what? It's so weird because I never associate Jerry Springer with The orchestrating of that show, because he just seems so prim and proper, like he's almost [00:13:00] just a bystander. So I don't feel like he's relishing it. I don't see him sitting there watching someone talk about how they married their cousin, and they were caught by their stepmum, or whatever.

[00:13:11] And, and then he's sitting there relishing and loving and rubbing his hands together and like, egging them on. He's just so prim and proper. I don't associate him with the shenanigans of it. True, I guess he's letting people air their laundry. Yeah, he's a mediator. 

[00:13:24] Adam Cox: And then at the end of the show, he always then has that final thought moment where he then judges them.

[00:13:28] Kyle Risi: Does he? 

[00:13:29] Adam Cox: Yeah. What do you mean? He always has those final, I think it comes up on screen, the caption, like Jerry's final thought, and then he would then give this kind of like summary of what's happened and basically try and explain the chaos that's just happened in a way , to sum it up in some poignant moment.

[00:13:44] Kyle Risi: Oh, you say that that's the salacious bit that he's injecting in for himself? That's him saying, like, you know, why can't we all be nice to each other? Oh, okay, well, that, I mean, that's reasonable. What he's doing is making an example of these people. Saying, don't let your life turn to shit like these [00:14:00] people.

[00:14:00] Adam Cox: He should have just said that. This is what's not to do at home, folks. So after Kennedy's assassination in 1968, Springer threw himself into the anti war movement, finding himself at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago that same year. The convention became a flashpoint for the decade's social upheaval with violent clashes between protests and police, 

[00:14:22] so these experiences that,Jerry had experienced up until this point had left quite a deep impression on him. He often said, You learn that you never judge people on what they are, but what they do. 

[00:14:33] Around this time, Springer married Mickey Velton, who worked at Procter Gamble, but his rising career and personal life were derailed in 1974, when a police raid on a Kentucky brothel uncovered a personal cheque signed by none other than Gerald Springer. Oh, really? So it's a bit of a rookie mistake that, he was paying for a sex worker with a cheque.

[00:14:55] Kyle Risi: What kind of sex worker was it was it was his cousin. 

[00:14:58] Adam Cox: I dunno about that. , [00:15:00] but I would've thought you'd just pay cash. Why would you write out a check? 

[00:15:03] Kyle Risi: Well, 'cause you don't have cash on you. 

[00:15:04] Adam Cox: Yeah. I mean, checks 

[00:15:05] Kyle Risi: are just as good as 

[00:15:06] Adam Cox: cash, right? back then probably. Yeah. Cash. 

[00:15:08] Kyle Risi: 'cause you can write out a check that you cash for cash.

[00:15:10] Adam Cox: Mm. 

[00:15:10] Kyle Risi: You deposit for cash, 

[00:15:12] Adam Cox: but then it's got a signature on there. 

[00:15:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Hey, listen, he's supporting a whole industry that should be respected. 

[00:15:20] Adam Cox: Yeah, but do you want written evidence of 

[00:15:22] Kyle Risi: that? No. Was he married at this point? 

[00:15:24] Adam Cox: He was married. Yes. And the scandal wasn't so much about the act itself, but the sheer carelessness of leaving a paper trail. and springing it up to his actions in a televised press conference. 

[00:15:35] Kyle Risi: Oh no, this is one of those things where he goes, so like, I fell, and as I fell, my hand scribbled across my checkbook, and I just ended up signing a check for a thousand dollars, and as I continued to fall, the page ripped out and floated through the air, and then landed between our cleavage, and all I can say is that, I'm so sorry.

[00:15:53] I'm deeply sorry.

[00:15:55] Adam Cox: Yep, that's exactly how it went down. He's a politician. 

[00:15:58] Kyle Risi: This is exactly 

[00:15:59] Adam Cox: how this [00:16:00] goes. So he was actually, I think he even cried during his, um, or he was tearful, , tearful, maybe not full on blubbering, but he was tearful during his confession. 

[00:16:08] Kyle Risi: Cause he got caught! 

[00:16:09] Adam Cox: And he resigned from city council in the wake of the scandal, but his confession and the way he dealt with the revelation kind of struck a chord with the public.

[00:16:17] He was so well loved in that area, And I guess this moment of vulnerability was actually quite well received, and he was elected back to City Council. I don't know how his wife took it, the City Council, they were fine with him. And he was Yeah, sure, 

[00:16:30] Kyle Risi: because to a degree, you can separate someone's personal life from their professional life, to a degree, right? But at the same time, it can be tricky depending on what kind of politician you are. Yeah, I don't know if you stand for family values and you directly contradict yourself and that can be problematic 

[00:16:48] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's not gonna look good. No, but he was actually named mayor for a term. So he did get you know, some Political really he was mayor.

[00:16:55] Yeah. Oh, wow 

[00:16:56] so Jerry Springer served as mayor of [00:17:00] Cincinnati for one year, winning by the largest margin in the city's history at the time and receiving the most votes ever for someone to be going into office. His comeback campaign following the prostitution scandal, Springer leaned into the humour, one time saying, one thing you do know about me is my credit is good.

[00:17:18] His political career was marked by dramatic and unconventional gestures. He wrestled a bear for charity. Uh, and he was raising money for the Olympics, which I don't know why you'd have to raise money by tackling a bear. 

[00:17:30] Kyle Risi: What single handedly is he going to raise money for to host the whole Olympics in Cincinnati?

[00:17:34] Adam Cox: No idea. It was a, it was a televised event and for every minute someone could stay in the ring with a bear, they would raise several thousand dollars. And I think he did quite well until the second round when he makes the stupid mistake of attacking the bear on the nose and the big black bear swipes him and pins him to the ground.

[00:17:51] So there's a clip online, it's crazy. Oh. he also spent a night in jail to better understand inmates struggles and his flair Yeah, 

[00:17:58] Jerry Chant: whatever! 

[00:17:59] Adam Cox: He [00:18:00] must go with another prostitute! It's not, well, 

[00:18:03] Kyle Risi: I'm just, yeah, I just really want to connect with the prisoners. Then why are you handcuffed? Full immersive experience, guys. Full immersive experience. 

[00:18:13] Adam Cox: His flair for the theatrical, solidified his reputation as a larger than life figure in local politics. Even nuns came to his defense during his political come back after being caught at a brothel. Oh no, why, what does that even mean? Well, they referenced the biblical lesson, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[00:18:34] Kyle Risi: I thought they were going to say, Jerry Springer is our messiah. And we all know that Jesus Christ himself blunted with prostitutes. So we 

[00:18:43] Adam Cox: forgive him. We forgive him. And you should forgive him too. But I think this is the thing, regardless of what he did or didn't do, people seem to just rally behind him.

[00:18:51] He seems like a nice, likeable person. Yeah, I think that's it.Springer's time as a mayor of Cincinnati was limited to that one year, but his tenure was [00:19:00] marked by bold actions and regular commentary on a morning radio show. In 1982, he ran for governor of Ohio, but the prostitution scandal resurfaced, and that basically meant he didn't really get too far in that.

[00:19:11] So, naturally, like any failed politician or short lived politician, the next step would be to turn to television, right? Yeah, of course. But it wasn't quite like that. There was a sort of natural progression from being a politician to reporting on politics within the news.

[00:19:26] So Springer joined Cincinnati's MBC's affiliated station, which is called WLWT. 

[00:19:32] Kyle Risi: There are always some really weird things like, K W M B C I R S T, who did the blowfish, who did the blowfish, boop boop boop, boop boop boop 

[00:19:42] Adam Cox: boop. Yeah. You should, go into making like soundcliffs. Oh yeah, totally.

[00:19:48] Totally. so he was an anchorman and managing editor and Springer actually revitalized the station. he was a natural newsreader, and he propelled the station to the top of the ratings. Wow. His [00:20:00] nightly commentaries often ended with his now famous sign off, take care of yourselves and each other.

[00:20:05] Kyle Risi: Ah, see, yeah, so I do remember, yeah, he did used to end his shows on a positive note, didn't he? 

[00:20:11] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:20:11] So his work at the news station, earned him seven local Emmys. Springer became known for his on air stunts, including joining the Cincinnati Reds training camp and performing on Broadway. Okay. And due to Springer's success at that station, they decided to offer him his own daytime public affair show in 1990 Springer Show.

[00:20:32] And 

[00:20:32] Kyle Risi: the Jerry Springer Show was born! I am really surprised though that you can win an Emmy for a radio show. I always just assume it's, like, television. I think 

[00:20:40] Adam Cox: this was television as well. 

[00:20:42] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. I think you 

[00:20:43] Adam Cox: did both. Mmm. I'm pretty sure I did both. But the thing is, the show was very different to how it started to what it later would become.

[00:20:50] Oh, really? Do tell. Initially, the network positioned Springer as a potential successor to another one of their famous talk shows. And in its early years, the show focused on [00:21:00] serious topics such as, And unhousedness, I think is the correct terminology today. The unhoused.

[00:21:07] Yeah. the AIDS crisis, domestic violence, and it had pretty notable guests on the show. 

[00:21:12] Jerry Chant: huh. 

[00:21:13] Adam Cox: but no one cared about that, right? that's the thing. Despite some fairly moderate success, by 1994, the Jerry Springer show was on the verge of cancellation due to low ratings. Yeah, because someone else is already doing that.

[00:21:24] It's called, 

[00:21:25] Kyle Risi: you know. The news. 

[00:21:28] Adam Cox: the production company gave the producers and Jerry an ultimatum boost viewership or by November that year You're gonna face the axe. 

[00:21:35] Kyle Risi: So this is all down to him. mean his production company or yeah 

[00:21:38] Adam Cox: Him the whole team have to like somehow make this show work.

[00:21:41] Otherwise, it's it's off the air. What's he gonna do? it led to a significant creative shake up. A new producer was put in place who had a background in theatre, comedy, and tabloids which helped to reinvent the show. Oh, and that worked, I'm assuming then. Yeah, the producer admitted that the show's original iteration, whilst [00:22:00] responsible, was dull.

[00:22:03] And was oppressively self important. What does that even mean? It's like, no, no, no. You're being too pretentious. Let's just get some rednecks in here. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:22:13] Kyle Risi: You've got to relate to the ordinary man. And Jerry Springer can do that really well. But I think the format of the show just wasn't allowing for that.

[00:22:22] Adam Cox: So to turn things around, the producer and Springer decided to fully embrace the outrageousness. Their motto was, let's be outrageous. Don't bring me something unless it's interesting with a sound off. 

[00:22:33] Kyle Risi: can we play around with some segments for what we could call some segments of the show.

[00:22:38] What do you mean? Yeah, I want to come up with my own little segments. Okay. That I could call the show. for example, a pimp spit in my mouth! 

[00:22:46] Adam Cox: Oh, you're talking about like the titles of the show? Yeah, yeah, because they're always so just crazy. Oh, we're just about to get to that because Oh, I'm so ready for this.

[00:22:55] The result of this new show was a pivot towards sensationalism, targeting [00:23:00] college students hungry for shocking, irreverent content, and the shift would set the Jerry Springer Show on a path to become one of the most notorious daytime programs of all time. And so by December 1994, the Jerry Springer show had fully committed to its absurd and outrageous change, leaving any resemblance of serious programming basically in the 

[00:23:20] Kyle Risi: dust.

[00:23:20] Yeah. 

[00:23:21] Adam Cox: The show's titles for each episode are the talk show equivalent of a red top scandalous newspaper story. Oh, I 

[00:23:27] Kyle Risi: love it. 

[00:23:28] Adam Cox: And here are just some examples. 

[00:23:30] Kyle Risi: Yes. 

[00:23:31] Adam Cox: I want my boyfriend to stop watching porn. Understandable. My boyfriend turned out to be a girl. Ha ha 

[00:23:38] Kyle Risi: ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Oh wow! 

[00:23:42] Adam Cox: My baby daddy has 12 other kids.

[00:23:45] Kyle Risi: Oh god, okay, that's problematic. 

[00:23:47] Adam Cox: Catfished by a little person. Ha ha ha ha ha. Stop pimping my twin sister. Oh 

[00:23:55] Kyle Risi: god, 

[00:23:55] Adam Cox: no! Strip a sex, turn me straight. Thank you. Because it does. [00:24:00] Threesome, with my mum. Oh no. Are you the boy, are you a boy? I don't know about this, yeah. Can 

[00:24:05] Kyle Risi: you imagine? 

[00:24:06] Adam Cox: Algebra teaching prostitute.

[00:24:08] Because who says they can't do math? Oh, amazing. Transgender triangles, and then the age old debate. large versus small breasts. It's an important one. 

[00:24:20] . 

[00:24:20] Yeah, Gerry would go on to say in his final thought for that episode that you the biggest boob of all.

[00:24:28] Kyle Risi: What? Then why 

[00:24:29] Jerry Chant: have a show about it? 

[00:24:30] Adam Cox: I know, it's kind of like, what did we just do for 30 

[00:24:33] Jerry Chant: minutes? Do 

[00:24:34] Kyle Risi: you know what? I sometimes, for me, Jerry Springer's always associated with Friends in a weird way, because I think it was around about the time that I started watching it real seriously. And you think about some of the storylines that happen on Friends, and you think they could have been brilliant.

[00:24:51] Jerry Springer segments. So for example, like a pimp spit in my mouth. 

[00:24:54] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:24:55] Kyle Risi: Yeah. I fooled around my best friends and now we're getting married. 

[00:24:58] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:24:59] Kyle Risi: Yeah. We were [00:25:00] on a break. 

[00:25:01] Adam Cox: I threw my girlfriend's leg into the fire. 

[00:25:03] Kyle Risi: I threw my girlfriend's leg into the fire. Yes. What other ones are there?

[00:25:07] My girlfriend is a hoarder. I said the wrong name at my wedding.it was written 

[00:25:14] Adam Cox: for Jerry Springer. It's true actually, I didn't think about that. Wow, they're problematic friendships. 

[00:25:20] Kyle Risi: Oh my god, I listened to my brother having sex through the hotel wall. With a glass. With 

[00:25:28] Adam Cox: Um, in one episode, a young man called Raymond appeared on the show.

[00:25:32] His mission was to lose his virginity. And so Springer, helped. Oh God, no! In the loosest sense of the word. By presenting Raymond with five young women hidden behind a screen to choose from. But Raymond's friend, Woody, was also on hand for support and was on the show. But,the shock on screen graphic whilst Woody was on screen said that Woody doesn't know, but his 18 year old virgin sister is one of the contestants.

[00:25:56] So wait, Raymond's best friend? Did he know this? He [00:26:00] did not know this. Was he in the audience? Yeah, he's on screen like, Yeah, I'm here to cheer you on, we're gonna lose your V plates. 

[00:26:05] Kyle Risi: And then his sister walks out! 

[00:26:07] Adam Cox: And he's just like,

[00:26:10] Kyle Risi: Oh gosh, you don't know how badly this is bumming me out right now.

[00:26:13] Yeah. 

[00:26:14] Adam Cox: And it's the kind of twist that just makes you go like, Is this real? Are they really doing this? 

[00:26:19] Kyle Risi: exactly! Exactly. Is it real? I don't think it is. I think it was so hammed up. 

[00:26:24] Adam Cox: yeah, we'll go on to how much was, real and how much was maybe manipulated. so we've got some interesting quotes from people. 

[00:26:31] Jerry Chant: Mm. 

[00:26:31] Adam Cox: so Springer, thanks to his political background, could always put a spin on the event that would unfold He said that the content that they would broadcast was actually a reflection of his audience's desires. it's interesting that he said this. he was listening to the public to show a side of life that's rarely if ever seen on television.

[00:26:50] And he says like, all this stuff that you see, This has been going on for years. Yeah. But you just talk about it in your little gossip groups at work, . 

[00:26:57] Kyle Risi: no, I get that. who doesn't want to have sex with their best friend's [00:27:00] sister? You know? Who doesn't want to have an orgy with their mum?

[00:27:06] I think about it all the time! 

[00:27:08] Adam Cox: Christmas is a conundrum. I know! 

[00:27:10] Kyle Risi: I don't know where to put my feelings. 

[00:27:12] Adam Cox: and I think what he was trying to say is Look, I'm not actually doing anything that's that extreme, I'm just putting it on TV. Showing the world what it really, he's basically a truth sayer.

[00:27:20] Yeah, he's just trying to educate us, I guess.so he's giving everyday people of no fame, little wealth and very little influence a chance to express themselves. And to him, this was raw democracy on display. Raw democracy on display. He's such a politician. I know. he is all for American liberalism.

[00:27:38] Kyle Risi: Oh, I want to meet 

[00:27:39] Adam Cox: him. Well, he is dead. Yeah, he died. He's dead. He's died. Yeah. 

[00:27:44] Kyle Risi: he 

[00:27:44] Adam Cox: die? He died in 2023. Oh, last year? 

[00:27:50] Kyle Risi: Oh, 

[00:27:51] Adam Cox: are you gonna tell us how he died? 

[00:27:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I'll do it at the end. Oh, because I mean I'm trying to do this chronologically. 

[00:27:57] Adam Cox: I'm devastated by that. I had no idea he died. [00:28:00] Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I still like him.

[00:28:02] We'll go on to some of the things I think, I don't know, maybe you're not a nice person, but equally, I don't know. Oh, don't spoil 

[00:28:08] Kyle Risi: this for me. Maybe he's just a 

[00:28:09] Adam Cox: naughty grandpa. 

[00:28:12] Kyle Risi: Who isn't? once you get to an age, you earn the right, right? To be a nuisance. Mmm. Oh, no. That mmm. That mmm. Wait.

[00:28:24] I'm disappointed by that. 

[00:28:26] Adam Cox: Oh, okay. But I think the thing is, the reason I go, mmm, is because the stuff his guests are sharing, that they're putting out into the world, is probably stuff that people should be doing with a counselor or a psychiatrist of some kind. not really broadcasting this to millions of people around the world.

[00:28:42] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that adds a certain degree of complexity to that. But also that's the reason why these things aren't out in the open is because they are sensitive issues and

[00:28:52] It can cause further ruptures in people's relationships. Sometimes it is better just to keep these things quiet. Don't tell people [00:29:00] you want a threesome with your mum. No, that's not a 

[00:29:02] Adam Cox: good idea. Well, speak to someone that can actually generally help. Not Jerry Springer. And the thing is, I think a lot of people that watch the show could realise, oh, I'm not sure about this.

[00:29:11] They question whether this was a good idea. But at the same time, they just couldn't stop watching all that damn right pandemonium. 

[00:29:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. And the ratings, man, who's gonna want to give up on that? 

[00:29:20] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:29:21] And whilst Jerry might, share his concern at the end of his episodes and telling people to take care of each other, he's still actually exploiting these people. He's saying like, yeah, take care of yourselves. But why are you not taking care of these people that are on the show? 

[00:29:34] Kyle Risi: Exactly. And do you think that that was his, his disclaimer, almost?

[00:29:38] By having, finishing on, a final thought, is him, saying 

[00:29:42] Adam Cox: Kind of a justification. Yeah, covering his own back. 

[00:29:44] Kyle Risi: I've said this as a final thing. It shows that we care. And that you should be kind to people. But then you go off and do it the next week again. 

[00:29:51] Adam Cox: Yeah, the thing is,he'll say that to the camera, they go, 

[00:29:54] Kyle Risi: cut, 

[00:29:54] Adam Cox: great, see you later, guys.

[00:29:56] And he's off, he goes home. Yeah. So I don't know. As of now, it feels [00:30:00] like a good time to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to dig into some of the most absurd stories that came from the show and dig into whether a bit of good old fashioned TV riggery was at play. 

[00:30:09] Kyle Risi: Or, a good word, riggery.

[00:30:11] It's really taking me back, Adam.

[00:30:18] You should watch Eurotrash after this.

[00:30:20] Lola Ferrari and her breasts. Coming up straight after, Jerry Springer. 

[00:30:24] Adam Cox: Welcome back! , so before the break, we have seen that the Jerry Springer show started off on the moral high ground, but now slipped into sensationalism. Jerry! 

[00:30:36] Jerry Chant: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Is that 

[00:30:40] Kyle Risi: what we mean? Yeah. Slipped into kind of I don't know.

[00:30:43] The, 

[00:30:44] Adam Cox: the swamp slipped. I feel like it's tripped and then tumbled and rolled downhill. Written a check on the way out. And all for chasing the ratings, but what is the fallout from some of this?whilst the show had fleeting moments of cultural significance, and by [00:31:00] that I do mean fleeting.

[00:31:01] Like what? While Springer was an early platform for the alphabet community guests a lot of the time, although back then there were less letters. And for some viewers, it would have been perhaps the first time hearing stories from trans people and people that were gay, etc. 

[00:31:15] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but the thing is, though, no, because it's making us sceptical of them.

[00:31:20] Adam Cox: A spectacle. 

[00:31:22] Jerry Chant: I don't think they exist!

[00:31:24] Adam Cox: But the thing is, if that was done today,it'd have to be probably portrayed with a lot more care and sensitivity. Yeah, yeah. Back then, I imagine it probably wasn't. 

[00:31:34] one of the show's darkest moments, however, came from the 2000 episode Secret Mistresses Confronted. 

[00:31:40] Jerry Chant: Okay. 

[00:31:40] Adam Cox: Which, like many episodes of the show, thrived on the spectacle of humiliation and personal drama.

[00:31:46] But unlike other Springs episodes, this one culminated in a brutal murder just hours after it aired. 

[00:31:51] Kyle Risi: Oh, and this isn't the first time that's happened, I believe. I think, there's another show, TV show, that was a big, high profile murder that came from it after it [00:32:00] aired. A guy was like, yeah, I've got a secret crush of my best friend.

[00:32:03] Yeah. And he was completely straight. 

[00:32:04] Adam Cox: That's not Jerry Springer was it? No, it was another show. but yeah, a similar sort of timeframe. And I think his friend ended up killing him because of being Yeah. Shot him with a shotgun. Yeah. So not quite the same story, but very sort of similar circumstances. the episode featured a guy called Ralph Penit, a German born house painter.

[00:32:24] His new wife, Eleanor, and his ex wife, Nancy. The setup was a classic spring episode, a messy love triangle where emotions ran high, secrets are spilled, and the audience were primed to jeer. And Nancy was blindsided when she learned on air that Ralph had secretly married Eleanor just months earlier.

[00:32:42] And she confronted the couple, accusing them of lying and manipulation, only to be ridiculed in return. And the thing is, now that Ralph and Eleanor are together, they basically just humiliated Nancy on air, and encouraging the audience to mock her, saying that she was fat, that she's old, and all this.

[00:32:58] That's 

[00:32:59] Kyle Risi: [00:33:00] horrible. 

[00:33:00] Adam Cox: Yeah, and eventually the episode ended dramatically, with Nancy visibly upset, and she just storms off stage. but then what happened after that, once the cameras stopped rolling,it's a few months go by, the episode airs, and then Nancy is found dead in Sarasota, Florida, where she still shared a home with Ralph and Eleanor.

[00:33:19] It's a very weird sort of setup. What? So they were living together? 

[00:33:23] Kyle Risi: Were they a throuple? 

[00:33:24] Adam Cox: I don't know. There was something that I read that apparently all three of them spent the night together in a hotel. 

[00:33:30] Kyle Risi: Okay, 

[00:33:31] Adam Cox: do we know how she died? her body was discovered badly beaten and unrecognisable with injuries so severe it was difficult for authorities to confirm her identity.

[00:33:38] So she was beaten 

[00:33:39] Jerry Chant: up? 

[00:33:40] Adam Cox: Yeah. And the violent nature of the crime pointed to rage, essentially, and detectives quickly focused on Ralph and Eleanor, who had been seen at the home not long before Nancy was found. And the couple had a violent history. And Nancy had put restraining orders on him after domesticviolence allegations.

[00:33:58] But she was living [00:34:00] with him! I know, but the thing is, this has been going on for months. Ugh. And then they go on Jerry Springer. 

[00:34:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah, probably someone's heard about it, they've reached out. I would like to know the motivations, and I'm hoping that you're going to come to this, but what are the incentives to go on the show?

[00:34:15] Do you get promised money? Do you get promised counselling? Well, obviously no counselling, but why would people willingly go on TV? 

[00:34:25] Adam Cox: Yeah, a lot of people would phone up, I think it was about 5, 000 people a week would phone up and be like I want to be on the show. 

[00:34:30] Kyle Risi: it just became a cultural phenomenon.

[00:34:32] 

[00:34:32] Adam Cox: yeah. So there's no like monetary reward or anything? Not really, no. we'll go on to how that sort of process works, but there wasn't really a huge fame or anything other than this, 30 minutes and then you're gone. 

[00:34:43] Kyle Risi: The thing is, though, it must prove how, how you view your situation that you're in.

[00:34:49] Again, I keep coming back to it, but that threesome with your mum.are you really that ashamed of that for you to be willing to call up the show and say, I want to be on the show? the real [00:35:00] gritty stuff that people are absolutely ashamed of. That actually represents our deepest subconscious stuff.

[00:35:05] That's probably not making it to the airwaves because no one in their right mind would be willing to share the real gritty stuff, right? Unless you were super proud of it. 

[00:35:15] Adam Cox: I guess so, but some of the stuff people did share, I don't know, it's pretty gritty. Mmm.so this case against Ralph quickly mounted, and police discovered 18 bloody footprints matching shoes owned by him at the crime scene.

[00:35:27] And then Nancy's fingernails contained his, traces of DNA. So basically it indicates a struggle, between the two of them before she died. And investigators also learned that just before the murder, Nancy had succeeded in getting a judge to bar Ralph from the property. perhaps that is the legal setback that just enraged him even further.

[00:35:47] Ralph and Eleanor go on the run, and they're basically tracked down, before they get to Canada, which is where they were running off to. And they surrender. Ralph is extradited to Florida and charged with second degree murder. 

[00:35:58] And he's sentenced to life [00:36:00] in prison. Whereas Eleanor, while not charged in Nancy's death, remains adamant that Ralph was innocent, vowing to fight for his release. 

[00:36:07] Kyle Risi: Okay, sure, this tragic incident has happened between a throuple, that was Very clearly rocky and emotional and charged.

[00:36:18] Is it fair to say that this murder wouldn't have happened had they gone on the Jerry Springer show? So what, was the Jerry Springer show implicated in the court case in any way? 

[00:36:30] Adam Cox: yeah, there was a lot of, debate and criticism saying that actually this all came down to the Jerry Springer show. Nancy's son filed a lawsuit against the show, arguing that the producer's encouragement of deceit and had created a mood that led to murder. the lawsuit alleged that Nancy had been misled into appearing on the show, believing she was there to reconcile with Ralph.

[00:36:51] Instead, she was ambushed by his announcement of his marriage to Eleanor, leaving her humiliated on national television. And Ralph reportedly [00:37:00] watched the episode at a bar shortly before the murder, drinking heavily, and that maybe just, mounted his rage and anger. I think they had a really terrible relationship.

[00:37:09] Ralph was basically seeing both women at the same time and kind of switching between two of them. So it could have happened anyway, but maybe this brought it on. Yeah, it's hard to say. 

[00:37:18] Kyle Risi: What I'm hearing is that the coming onto the show added another layer of humiliation that for them, or for her, or for both of them, or three of them, Was almost like putting the knife in and twisting it.

[00:37:30] Yeah. Making it worse. So it exas debated, 

[00:37:34] Adam Cox: exasperated, 

[00:37:35] Kyle Risi: let's go with Exas. Taste . 

[00:37:37] Adam Cox: Yeah. It made the situation worse. I think that's the thing, and I think.this is why I was saying, like, why go on the Jerry Springer show when you probably should have had proper counselling?

[00:37:44] Obviously, if you've got,a police order against someone, or a restraining order, Why would you go on that show? it's kind of their own fault for agreeing to it, but also they were misled. It's a bit of a mess, to be honest. 

[00:37:56] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I'm so torn, I'm so Natalie and Brulied, [00:38:00] because, I've always seen Jerry Springer as this cultural phenomenon that was always been a spectacle of the human condition, but now I feel bad because of the fallout of some of these, segments.

[00:38:12] Adam Cox: Yeah, I think especially when someone has died now. And so these episodes, it really puts a whole new perspective on it. Whereas there are some which are just funny, sensationalism, just, I don't know, easy watch sort of thing. But this is horrible, 

[00:38:26] Kyle Risi: But also, let's take this one out of it, right?

[00:38:28] Let's say you have invited guests on where they do have a funny story that you do deem as light hearted. You don't know how the other person who has almost been ambushed or going to be like they're under false pretenses is going to take it or handle it in the aftermath. Especially if they then go home and then they thought they were going on the show for one reason, And it was a completely different reason, and yes it might be small and petty and funny, but they could take that really to heart, depending on what type of human being they are, right?

[00:38:57] They could be fairly sensitive, [00:39:00] and I wonder if there were other casualties on this, like other people maybe took their life as a result? 

[00:39:05] Adam Cox: I think the thing is that the welfare or aftercare was definitely not there in the 90s. yeah, it just didn't exist, did it? Reality TV shows come under scrutiny now for not having that and and for failing people, if you think of Love Island where there's been people that've committed suicide off the back of that.

[00:39:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:39:20] Adam Cox: And so I can't imagine what people felt at the time back then. And I think the thing is that,there were certain investigations into the show, and people have explored whether guests could even be arrested for on air violence because there would be these huge bust ups. Yeah, there would be.

[00:39:35] And there were security guards would come in and obviously break it up, but Ah, they're really trying. I don't, yeah. the show allegedly operated under some standards. Audiences weren't allowed to shout anything that could incite violence, and male on female violence was prohibited.

[00:39:50] Okay. But male on male, that's okay. And woman on woman. Yeah. And Springer claimed women were always offered the chance to press charges, numbers were [00:40:00] staggering. A 1998 New York Times editorial report said that, Each episode averaged 85 to 130 bleeps in between 5 and 12 fights.

[00:40:13] Kyle Risi: I love it. The thing is though, that can only exist if someone's trying to incite that, right? That's what they want. They want the bleeps, they want the fights. 

[00:40:19] Adam Cox: And that's the thing, these stats naturally raise questions about the authenticity of some of those fights.

[00:40:24] Were they real or were they staged like pro wrestling? Yes, exactly. A BBC investigation in 1998 found that 16 former guests claimed they were coached on who to hit, with some publications alleging the show had a fight quota. One guest said we acted everything. They wanted us to wrestle and throw each other around.

[00:40:43] They said, we want four fights. Rolling Stone captured the chaos in a 1998 profile recounting a backstage interaction where producer Melinda Chait told a guest, if you're gonna take your shoe off and put your sock in her mouth, do it fast or [00:41:00] security will try and stop you. Can you believe that? I can't believe 

[00:41:03] Kyle Risi: it!

[00:41:03] If you 

[00:41:03] Adam Cox: want to do that, that's fine, but just do it real quick. 

[00:41:05] Kyle Risi: Wow! So this is obviously someone looking at the ratings going, do you know what? Our best episode that we've ever had, it had four fights and this happened, this was said, this person was involved, so we want to replicate that more.

[00:41:18] So it's purely chasing the ratings 100%. 

[00:41:20] Adam Cox: Hence this fight quota apparently was, used. that producer did Apparently, this is where the standards come in. Drew a hard line when the same guest tried to mention suicide, and she's nope, we're not talking about that. We're not going to be talking about that at all.

[00:41:34] If you bring it up, I'll stop the taping. Wow. So we'll only show what we want to show, and it has to be 

[00:41:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so it's heavily edited. 

[00:41:42] Adam Cox: The show's reputation for faking or embellishing stories was a constant shadow. In 2015, a vice journalist named Harmon Leon tested the vetting process by claiming to have a meth addicted boyfriend was having too much anonymous sex on Grindr, and a producer reportedly encouraged him to spice up [00:42:00] the story by recruiting someone to pretend to be one of the supposed lovers.

[00:42:03] Kyle Risi: Shut up. 

[00:42:04] Adam Cox: Further fueling this kind of suspicion about, actually, is this real? And then a Canadian stand up comic, Ian Sirota, and his friends once orchestrated a prank on the Jerry Springer show after responding to a casting call for guests who had slept with their babysitter. The group staged the entire thing, but their Canadian viewers quickly recognized them, saying, Oh, this story is a hoax.

[00:42:26] And Springer's team responded by suing the comedian 50, 000 to recoup production costs and make an example of them. the case was settled out of court for 10, which the comedians basically sent some loose change. 

[00:42:40] Kyle Risi: So basically we can manipulate the audience as the Jerry Springer show and do what we want to do.

[00:42:44] But if someone dare try to do that to us, then 

[00:42:46] Adam Cox: yeah, 

[00:42:48] Kyle Risi: we'll see you in court. 

[00:42:49] Don't mess with Jerry Springer. He's a lawyer, man. 

[00:42:52] Adam Cox: and then I was doing some digging on Reddit, because it's always good to find some tidbits of information. Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:56] And of course, I don't know if this is a reliable source, so I'm going to use [00:43:00] some allegedly, supposedly. It's Reddit, it's Reddit, it's not reliable. Um, but they were talking about, the Jerry Springer, show on one of the threads, and one person said oh yeah, no, I've been on it. And she said, it was mostly fake, we had a smidgen of truth to our story, but they filled in the rest, essentially.

[00:43:14] and they had a warning before the show started that, if it's not real, we'll fine you 86, 000, because that's how much it costs to tape one episode. Um, why do they 

[00:43:24] Kyle Risi: care if it's not real? 

[00:43:25] Adam Cox: I think if it's all fake, then they don't want to be made to look like fools and like this hoax and stuff.

[00:43:30] so 

[00:43:30] Kyle Risi: we need a real story. that we the Joe Springer Show can fabricate on top of. 

[00:43:34] Adam Cox: can put some 

[00:43:35] Kyle Risi: glitter 

[00:43:35] Adam Cox: on it, some cream, 

[00:43:37] Kyle Risi: all sorts. Yeah, a bit of cherries on there, a bit of incestual sex. 

[00:43:41] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:43:41] She says that she didn't get paid, but they flew them out there. They get a limo ride, they get taken to and from the airport, they put up in a hotel and they're provided money for food.

[00:43:50] So that's literally all they get. 

[00:43:52] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[00:43:52] Adam Cox: Then she says that they were super coached, the producers made up a couple of lines and they had them go over them over and over until they got it right [00:44:00] in terms of how they would say it. And the girl in the group A little bit more emotion, Adam. A little bit more emotion.

[00:44:04]

[00:44:04] Adam Cox: this is the thing, one of the girls in the group was told to come out crying, but she couldn't fake cry on command. So the producer got in her face and told her a bunch of super shitty stuff and threatened her. with having to pay for the cost of the episode. , if she doesn't cry, and that basically made her cry.

[00:44:19] And then they're like, quick, get her out. Oh my god. And so the show went on for like3, 891 episodes. I guess not all the stories are going to be fake, but I'm sure with that many episodes and how extreme some of them were.

[00:44:36] , these contestants were coached, they were made to say certain things, do certain actions, maybe things were changed in the story. And Jerry himself was willing to say that the show was 98 percent real. 

[00:44:47] Kyle Risi: . I love that number that he's picked. Not 99 percent real. 

[00:44:50] Adam Cox: It's 98 percent real.

[00:44:51] Yeah. There we go. They're making entertainment. 

[00:44:54] Kyle Risi: Of course they are. I never doubted that for a second. And also because it became this [00:45:00] huge cultural phenomenon that got slotted in between Eurotrash and South Park at 11 o'clock at night, that's a huge time slot for a lot of lonely argumentative hungry people.

[00:45:12] Hungry people. Who stay up late at night wanting to see some action. And when you've got a show that huge and people know that oh wow, I was on the Jerry Springer show, there's a huge incentive to really bring out your dirty laundry and spice it up a bit with, like you said, a bit of salt, bit of pepper, bit of cream, cherry on top, make it delicious!

[00:45:34] What are you making?

[00:45:42] Adam Cox: And yeah, so they always had to, like, find all these different stories, right? they're taping so many episodes, and so they would receive, like I said, 5, 000 calls a week from potential guests. And the producer, and his team, were, like, sifting through what are the angriest or the juiciest stories.

[00:45:58] And each guest was prepped with a general [00:46:00] idea of the episode. They had to ship the guests out to record the episode within 24 hours or 48 hours because they don't want them like second guessing it and thinking maybe I shouldn't go on there.

[00:46:09] Oh, right. So they're like, oh, get them now, get them while they're in the sort of mindset of doing this. Again, it's just 

[00:46:14] Kyle Risi: further evidence that they know they're manipulating people. 

[00:46:17] Adam Cox: Yeah.

[00:46:17] That in 1998, I think there was so much controversy around the show that, initially the production company had tried to rein in the show's outrageous antics, prompting the parent company's chairman to announce in May 1998, We are getting out of the fighting business.

[00:46:33] and so they wanted to try 

[00:46:34] Kyle Risi: They did it last! 

[00:46:35] Adam Cox: yeah, they wanted to try and tone it down, executives promised the show would remain confrontational without the punches and the yelling and some of the screaming and stuff like that. Okay, what did they do?

[00:46:43] they, they made those changes, they cleaned up their act, and the ratings tanked. 

[00:46:47] Kyle Risi: Did they? People wanted a good fight. 

[00:46:49] Adam Cox: Yeah, and so a complete 180 was made, because people wanted to see the fights, the drama, the theatrics. And so within a couple of months, they were all back, the ratings were up, and Springer was backed in his number one slot.

[00:46:59] Kyle Risi: So how [00:47:00] do you handle that? you've got this thing where people are calling for you to be more responsible as a production company, guys. Enough is enough, and you go, okay, okay, we'll change our act. It screws your profits, and then you're like, well, 

[00:47:12] Adam Cox: screw that, we're going back to how we were. It's interesting that you say that about the profits, though, because despite its popularity, advertisers remain quite cautious and hesitant about, having their ads show around,Springer.

[00:47:24] So how did they make money? it was getting 7 million daily viewers, and it was more than Oprah Winfrey at this moment in time. But, the thing is, a 30 second ad on Jerry Springer cost less than a third of what it did on Oprah, even though it had more ratings, because brands just didn't want to be associated with this program and they had to try and sell their inventory.

[00:47:45] yeah, it was cheaper inventory despite it being a bigger show. 

[00:47:48] Kyle Risi: So basically it's just a supply and demand thing.

[00:47:50] Yeah, you're a bit cautious about advertising fairy washing up liquid. on our daytime television show. But what we will do is we'll give you a [00:48:00] nice little discount. 

[00:48:01] Adam Cox: And that's probably what commits some people. Yeah, exactly. And some brands probably would just never do it full stop. They'd rather appear next to Oprah or whatever.

[00:48:09] Because people who love a good fight also like to wash up their dishes. Yeah, a dirty fight, but they want clean dishes.

[00:48:15] To be honest, Oprah herself even admitted that she was going to quit her show, at one point, because she was like, how do I even contend with this? I thought 

[00:48:23] Kyle Risi: you were going to say she was going to reformat her show, become like a Jerry Springer. Can you imagine that? 

[00:48:29] Adam Cox: Yeah. So it's crazy that even it gave her self doubts.

[00:48:33] Other crazy moments from the show include an episode from 1997 where Springer attempted to moderate a conversation between the Ku Klux Klan and the Jewish Defense League, which quickly dissolved into chaos and a brawl. 

[00:48:44] Kyle Risi: Of course. 

[00:48:45] Adam Cox: In 1999. 

[00:48:46] Kyle Risi: didn't realise the Klu Klux Klan didn't like Jewish people.

[00:48:49] Or do they just not like anyone? 

[00:48:51] Adam Cox: this particular group Didn't like them. 

[00:48:54] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[00:48:55] Adam Cox: another incident involved, a lady called Dawn Marie Eaves, a 24 year old [00:49:00] wife and mother from Geneva, New York. She appeared on the show to confess that she was having an affair with a 16 year old boy, but then her on air confession did lead to criminal charges and her arrest. it's crazy that people would go on the show thinking this is a good idea, not knowing that If you state this in public, we're gonna have to investigate this.

[00:49:19] Kyle Risi: It's like those idiot criminals who like, get busted for stealing a pair of Nike shoes from Nike. And then they have to go to court wearing the Nike shoes! 

[00:49:29] Adam Cox: With the tags on them. And so there were rumors in the late 90s that Springer might be looking to leave that show, but when his contract was, coming up for expiration in 2000, he basically just re signed for a massive 30 million dollars.

[00:49:44] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[00:49:44] Adam Cox: So, you know, he's doing it for the money. And finally, there is, one episode I want to speak about, which has now been banned from TV. Go tell me so we first meet mark, and I think he's blind or perhaps partially sighted He's got his dark glasses and the [00:50:00] audience is introduced. 

[00:50:01] Kyle Risi: I'm sorry. I'd I don't know why I laughed there I laughed at him be blind.

[00:50:05] I'm sorry, but that 

[00:50:06] Adam Cox: is not funny I just the only reason I bring that up because I think It might explain what happens, but I don't know. 

[00:50:14] Kyle Risi: You're just gonna have to say it and I'm gonna try not to laugh. I have no idea what you're gonna say. 

[00:50:18] Adam Cox: Okay, I'm gonna go through what happens on the show. So the audience is introduced to him, but we don't get into a story too much.

[00:50:24] Jerry says, let's meet his wife and the audience whoops and cheers and it cuts to a woman with dark hair walking on stage. However, it's not her. She's holding in her hands some reins, and attached to those reins is a small horse. Her name is Pixel. 

[00:50:39] Kyle Risi: Is this the horse? This is 

[00:50:40] Adam Cox: the horse. This is the episode titled, I Married a Horse.

[00:50:43] And the audience are going nuts, where Mark seems pretty chill about it all. His wife comes up on stage, and they share what I guess you could call, is a kiss. You know how horses sort of eat a carrot and something, and their, their face or their mouth is just all, all over the place. Well yeah, the horse is doing that [00:51:00] to his face.

[00:51:00] She's like nozzling him. Yeah, and I think there's tongues at one point. Oh god. And Mark is blind. He's wearing these dark glasses which makes me believe he's partially sighted at the very least. Does he know he's married also? He definitely knows he's 

[00:51:15] Kyle Risi: married a horse. Okay, okay, so I thought that was going to be the twist of this.

[00:51:18] Okay, so he knows she's married. She's 

[00:51:20] Adam Cox: a horse? Just thought she was really muscular. No, but maybe that's, maybe the one of the reasons he's settled. I don't know.

[00:51:30] Kyle Risi: No woman wants a blind guy. I'll marry 

[00:51:33] Adam Cox: a 

[00:51:33] Kyle Risi: horse. 

[00:51:34] Adam Cox: Okay, carry on. So he first met his wife at a horse's trader's pen. She was about 12 at the time. Which I don't know what that is. 

[00:51:42] Kyle Risi: What the horse was? 

[00:51:43] Adam Cox: Is this consensual? Have they checked? I don't know. It's a very good question. When asked how his relationships or first took off essentially Mark said that she first played hard to get He had to earn her respect and her love and of course the topic goes on to their sexual relationship and [00:52:00] Mark says one day He happened to be brushing her tail and she lifted up her tail.

[00:52:05] And he says, and I quote, there it was in all its glory. Jerry takes a seat because he feels like he might vomit at this point in the show. 

[00:52:13] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:52:14] Adam Cox: The audience just start chanting Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, because that's the natural reaction you do at this point in time. And Mark goes on to say that he stuck his finger in because he was curious.

[00:52:26] and then it led to something which was so good, he passed out, afterwards. What? He says he has wild balls to the wall, crazy sex, and if she didn't like it, she could always leave. So that's his way of saying that she enjoys it. Oh. I don't 

[00:52:47] Jerry Chant: know what to say. 

[00:52:49] Adam Cox: You can watch a clip of it online because I only managed to find a small clip of this and this is what happens on The show 

[00:52:54] and he says he's looking to find acceptance, for this. He's been doing it for 40 years, apparently. [00:53:00] With the same 

[00:53:01] Jerry Chant: horse! 

[00:53:01] Adam Cox: no, in terms of having a relationship with an animal. Oh, other animals? I guess so, yeah.but the thing is, as a result of all this sex, he's contracted hepatitis, and as a result, he's dying from it.

[00:53:14] Kyle Risi: Oh God, and it's probably passing it on to all these other horses. I 

[00:53:18] Adam Cox: don't know, but it's pretty astonishing to be honest. and yeah, like you might be able to find this clip online. And do we know it's real? Or was this really like one of those episodes that were really fabricated? I don't know, who knows, but it's now been deemed too hot for TV And they've banned it, wow.

[00:53:34] so Springer's popularity was huge. He was in massive demand. He had cameos in popular shows like Roseanne, The X Files, The Simpsons, Sabrina the Teenage Witch. You might remember him from Austin Powers, The Spy Who Shagged Me, 

[00:53:47] He also hosted America's Got Talent for two seasons. Yes, he did. He competed on Dancing With The Stars, learned how to dance for his daughter's wedding. And even recorded a country album called Dr. Talk. No! You can sing! Oh, I haven't [00:54:00] listened to it, so that's up for debate. Good research 

[00:54:02] Kyle Risi: skills, Adam.

[00:54:03] Adam Cox: in 2003, his life and career inspired Jerry Springer The Opera, a brilliantly crude and shockingly ambitious musical that combines satire, philosophy, and pure outrageousness with an estimated 8, 000 obscenities, and it was written by these two guys, Richard Thomas and Stuart Lee.

[00:54:21] Kyle Risi: Wow. it's an opera. To me an opera is always in French or Italian. Is that what we're 

[00:54:27] Adam Cox: talking here? No, I think it was in English, and I think it was a musical but probably just done in more operatic type of voices and songs. I see, I see. in the first act, the opera mirrors the chaos of a Springer show, with guests bearing their most salacious secrets, 

[00:54:40] Did Pixel make an appearance? Not that I'm aware of, no, but, it would feature these well written and upbeat songs, as there's a talk about their affairs and all, all sorts. And then there would be, a fight. So exactly what you'd see on TV. and then there's Jerry there who's basically egging them on from the sidelines.

[00:54:58] But the real twist comes in the second act [00:55:00] where Jerry is shot by a nappy wearing fetishist aiming for a troupe of tap dancing Ku Klux Klan members. That's a lot to unpack. And wakes up in purgatory, where he's forced to mediate a surreal dispute between God, Jesus, and Satan. And the stakes, an eternity in hell, being fucked up the arse with barbed wire.

[00:55:19] This is a little bit like Book of Mormon. A little bit, yeah, I guess you could say that. I can 

[00:55:24] Kyle Risi: imagine Book of Mormon happening here. 

[00:55:26] Adam Cox: And so Jerry is deeply out of his comfort zone and says, I don't solve problems, I just televise them. 

[00:55:32] Kyle Risi: Ha ha ha! then televise us one! Yeah,

[00:55:35] Adam Cox: and it's basically, yeah, just taking a mick out of the show and everything that kind of goes with it.

[00:55:39] How funny. And so despite its absurd, plot, Jerry Springer himself became involved with the opera, seeing it both in Edinburgh and during its West End run. 

[00:55:48] Jerry Chant: Really? Wow. 

[00:55:49] Adam Cox: And overall, he actually really liked it, bar a few lines and, you know, accuracies about his life. And he was kind of annoyed that he didn't think of doing it himself.

[00:55:57] And it had this huge success. It ran for 609 [00:56:00] performance in London, from April 2003 to February 2005. It toured the UK, it won four Laurence Olivier Awards, including Best New Musical. And then it made its debut in America in Las Vegas. And the opera was even broadcast on the BBC in January 2005. Can you watch this on YouTube?

[00:56:20] Is it available? Maybe, but the thing is though, it was broadcast on the BBC with those 8, 000 obscenities and naturally it received 55, 000 complaints from people saying what the hell is this? This should not be on TV. 

[00:56:32] Kyle Risi: So, Telling 

[00:56:33] Adam Cox: complaints for every obscenity. Jerry Springer, the opera, didn't just poke fun at Jerry's career, explored the moral implications of sensationalist media and,whether Jerry Springer was exposing humanity's raw, unfiltered nature? Or was he exploiting it for entertainment and profit? And the opera's sort of critique of this TV show is Yeah, and what whether it's just entertainment or whether whether it's actually something more sinister. It's quite interesting.

[00:56:56]

[00:56:56] Kyle Risi: Mm hmm. Yeah There's a lot there. [00:57:00] And again, I'm not Liam Rulid because I Just don't know how to feel about it. I will always have a soft spot for the Jerry Springer show. Mm hmm. I will always remember the nights that I would sneak up to watch it because you were doing something naughty, right? It was late night television.

[00:57:17] But then I also appreciate the exploitation at the heart of this. So I just don't know how to feel about it. But also at the same time, Jerry Springer is such a, a great, likable, relatable human being, 

[00:57:31] Adam Cox: mediator. Yeah, he seems that way, doesn't he? Oh, he definitely gives that impression. he seems that way, I'm not, I'm not, there's no, sudden or hidden meaning behind that.

[00:57:39] Okay, so he hasn't done a Harvey Weinstein. No, not that I'm aware of, no. Okay. but eventually the glory days of the Jerry Springer show were waning and the internet grew and reality TV became more dominant with other sensationalist content and things like that.

[00:57:52] Kyle Risi: So the landscape just shifted basically. 

[00:57:54] Adam Cox: Yeah, and so by 2018, the show was cancelled, people were bored of it, or they had other things to [00:58:00] cast their eye on. 

[00:58:00] Jerry Chant: Hmm. 

[00:58:01] Adam Cox: Jerry's defense of the show evolved over the years because at times he brushed it off as harmless entertainment, which I think is a bit dangerous given some of the things that happened.

[00:58:10] other times he framed it as a raw mirror to mainstream America, showing the sides of life that, society preferred to ignore. But at the end of the day, Jerry seemed content to admit that the show was simply an easy way for him just to make money. Oh, 

[00:58:23] Kyle Risi: yeah. Yeah, he found a formula it worked for him.

[00:58:27] Yeah, and ultimately it was good money But but yeah, I don't agree with your the statement before that 

[00:58:33] I don't agree with the reflecting of American Kind of the zeitgeist because of course if you were willing to go and share that on television, then that's not really 

[00:58:43] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's probably a niche population Yeah, 

[00:58:46] Kyle Risi: and it kind of almost more leans into the attention seeking kind of portion of the population.

[00:58:52] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly that. And I think he himself was conflicted at times he appreciated the luckiness and the joy that he got in his day to day work saying his [00:59:00] job was never dull. But he admits he didn't even watch the show and he thought he would go to hell. for making that show. 

[00:59:07] Kyle Risi: Really?

[00:59:07] Yeah. Oh, oh, 

[00:59:09] Adam Cox: the reckoning is upon him. But that's a trade off you make when you're willing to rack up a 60 million dollar fortune. So hey. 

[00:59:16] Kyle Risi: Is that all he made from 

[00:59:17] Adam Cox: it? overall that's what he was worth before he died. 

[00:59:19] Kyle Risi: 60 million? 6 0? 

[00:59:21] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:59:21] Kyle Risi: Wow, I thought it'd be a lot more than that. I thought he'd be quite close to a billionaire, so I'm really surprised by that.

[00:59:26] Considering he did it for 30 years, right? 

[00:59:28] Adam Cox: Yeah, and it's really difficult to understand, if he was ever proud of what he did. I think he did feel remorse for perhaps some of the lives he had ruined. but publicising these stories on TV, he says it's just TV, and it shouldn't be taken serious, but given some of the horrible things that come out of the show, I think, he should look at that with a bit more seriousness.

[00:59:48] Kyle Risi: Mmm, yeah, and I agree, he has, Probably his regrets, I definitely do believe. I just, for some reason I have this feeling that he does regret a lot of it because of the [01:00:00] way he comes across and because of his background, because he was a mayor, And really feel remorseful when it was found out that check slipped and landed in the prostitute's breasts.

[01:00:09] So I think if he was being honest with himself, he probably would have gone, I was in it for the money. 

[01:00:14] Jerry Chant: Yeah. Which 

[01:00:15] Kyle Risi: is fine, I'm not judging him for it, but there is fallout. I think they should have learned a bit more from the fallout of some of the stories Mm hmm, and maybe not allow some weird producer to go.

[01:00:27] We need more ratings. Let's like sell out 

[01:00:31] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's interesting you say that because, there's a new Netflix documentary that's just coming out, called Jerry Springer. 

[01:00:38] Kyle Risi: Oh! 

[01:00:38] Adam Cox: So it's like you timed this? I make a habit of this, don't I? When is that coming out? it comes out, or it came out on the 7th of January, depending on when you listen to this.

[01:00:46] That's when this is scheduled for! Oh yeah, that's right!

[01:00:52] You are so funny! Something else. I know. and they interview some of the producers there's going to cover some of the stuff that we've talked about today. But one guy is [01:01:00] like, this is the last time I'm speaking about Cherry Springer show ever again.

[01:01:03] And I think there is this kind of slight shame on the people that were involved. In hindsight, maybe they're like, Oh yeah, this is fun. It's entertainment. That is how they, like you said, probably dealt with. Yeah. Or were able to deal with what they were doing. 

[01:01:17] Kyle Risi: And now this is finally, probably that closure for them.

[01:01:19] They can, A, get the last word, which is probably what they want. And also the show is now cancelled. It's no longer running. So this is probably that perfect opportunity to have that last word and then put it to bed. Yeah. It's gone. But Jerry is gone. Yeah. He did die. 

[01:01:33] Adam Cox: Yeah. In 2023, at the age of 79, following a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer.

[01:01:39] Kyle Risi: Really? 

[01:01:41] Adam Cox: Previous guests, actually posted on social media when the news broke. Some were really nice messages saying like they, had a They, they think a lot of him, a lot of admiration, but others were still a bit pissed and say you exploited me on TV. , you know, there were lies.

[01:01:54] You made me lie or whatever it was.and so reflecting on his legacy, the Guardian remarked that [01:02:00] Springer changed US television for better and worse. . And despite the controversy surrounding his career, Springer Maintained a big fan base. particularly among millennials who grew up watching the show,

[01:02:10] Kyle Risi: It was coming of age for me, man.

[01:02:12] Adam Cox: Hmm. And, Los Angeles Times dubbed him as the millennial's babysitter when they were getting home from school or whatever it was, that's what they would watch. And, yeah, he's had this huge impact, whether right or for wrong, he was an era defining TV host. 

[01:02:25] Kyle Risi: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[01:02:27] , I can see how it probably was a good thing for television because it maybe spearheaded a whole new genre. Yeah.that maybe was a little bit more balanced with the whole reality TV show side of things. Because this was the raw unedited stuff, right? That came with problems, it came with consequences and did ruin people's lives, but it was very attractive to viewers.

[01:02:49] So then I think from there a whole different genre of television, reality TV, came out where maybe they were like, great, let's take the best bits from Jerry. And show that raw side of [01:03:00] humanity, but let's be responsible for it, because I think now people are way more responsible with how these reality TV shows and these talk shows are handled nowadays.

[01:03:11] Adam Cox: Yeah, but then even then I'd say like they're still engineered in a way in terms of what we see on a reality TV show. Correct, but there is 

[01:03:17] Kyle Risi: support there. 

[01:03:18] Adam Cox: There is, you're right, there is that support, there is better aftercare, could be better perhaps, but You've still got producers that are trying to create a story and not necessarily out of malice or anything, but they will go oh, go up to this person and speak about this incident and stuff like that.

[01:03:32] They are engineering entertainment at the end of the day. Stories need 

[01:03:35] Kyle Risi: to be good. the reason why we have formulas for all these different stories, is because they resonate with people. So you want to create these stories within those structures. So I understand why they want to, orchestrated because they're proven time and time again.

[01:03:49] Adam Cox: Yeah. And they need to make a good show to keep people watching, to hit the ratings, to get the advertising revenue. 

[01:03:55] Jerry Chant: Yeah. 

[01:03:55] Adam Cox: That is the story of Jerry Springer and his pretty remarkable life. 

[01:03:59] Kyle Risi: That [01:04:00] was so good. And I felt like a little walk down memory lane. 

[01:04:05] Adam Cox: That's a crazy memory lane.

[01:04:07] Kyle Risi: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, it is. Good old Jerry. 

[01:04:10] I'm just really surprised by his past it makes sense. I'd never realized that he was a mayor of Cincinnati.

[01:04:17] He studied law. He was 

[01:04:20] Adam Cox: a newsreader or presenter and anchorman. He fought with a bear? 

[01:04:26] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but at the same time, he's created this phenomenon in America, and he has, let's be honest, taken advantage of people, but I still like him. He's a likeable guy. Why is that? I don't know.

[01:04:39] It's just, he's just your uncle, right? He's just Uncle Jerry. 

[01:04:43] Adam Cox: Yeah, I don't know. I'd be interested in how much say that he had in the show. yeah, I'm conflicted. 

[01:04:49] Kyle Risi: I don't know why. Yeah, you're Natalie Imbruglia. You said that three times. I'm gonna say that from now on.

[01:04:53] Adam Cox: Nice. 

[01:04:53] Kyle Risi: You get it, right? Yeah. Torn. I 

[01:04:55] Adam Cox: get it. 

[01:04:57] Kyle Risi: Just checking. I was wondering if you were like, he [01:05:00] said that twice now. What does it mean? 

[01:05:02] Adam Cox: As sophisticated as the joke was, Kyle.

[01:05:08] Kyle Risi: You're probably wondering what that is. that little sound clip was actually. I know what that sound 

[01:05:13] Adam Cox: clip was. 

[01:05:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but I want, listeners are probably wondering what that is. 

[01:05:15] Adam Cox: let's see if they write in. Right, shall we run the outro? Yes. And that's it for another episode of the Compendium. If today's episode tickled your curiosity, then don't forget to hit that follow button if you haven't already in your favourite podcasting app.

[01:05:31] It really makes a world of difference when you do. And for those diehard listeners, next week's episode is waiting for you right on our Patreon, completely free of charge. And if you're hungry for more, then join our certified Freaks tier and unlock our entire archive of unreleased episodes and get a sneak peek of what's coming next.

[01:05:47] we'd love you to join our growing community. new episodes drop every Tuesday, and remember, until next time, take care of yourselves, and each other. 

[01:05:56] Kyle Risi: Oh, you did a Jerry! Should we play, uh, the [01:06:00] Jerry shant one more time?

[01:06:01] One more time. 

[01:06:01] Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

[01:06:06] Adam Cox: Until next week. See you 

[01:06:08] later. 

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Kyle Risi

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Adam Cox

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