Knoedler Gallery Scandal: The Greatest Art Fraud of the Century

In this episode of the Compendium, we explore the Knoedler Gallery Scandal, a tale of deception that rocked the art world. We dive into how Glafira Rosales, Pei-Shen Qian, and Ann Freedman played key roles in the infamous art forgery scandal that fooled top collectors with fake Rothko paintings and other forged masterpieces. Discover how the oldest gallery in New York collapsed amidst lawsuits, fraud, and the sale of multi-million-dollar forgeries. We break down the twists and turns that made this scandal one of the greatest in art history.

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:

1. Provenance: How a Con Man and a Forger Rewrote the History of Modern Art by Laney Salisbury
2. The Art of the Con: The Most Notorious Fakes, Frauds, and Forgeries in the Art World by Anthony M. Amore
3. "The Great Knoedler Gallery Forgery Scandal" - Vanity Fair article
4. “Made You Look: A True Story of Fake Art’ Review” - Vanity Fair article
5. “Made You Look: A True Story About Fake Art” - Documentry

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Credits:

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• Intro and Outro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin
• All the Latest Things Intro: Clowns by Giulio Fazio

Chapters

• 0:00 Sneak peak
• 1:11 Welcome to The Compendium
• 2:06 Introduction
• 4:08 All the latest things
• 15:14 Topic of the week
• 1:17:36 Outro

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: So over time, Glifira and Anne, understandably, they become very good friends. At one point, Glifira's daughter is invited to work as an intern at the gallery.

[00:00:09] It got to the point where Anne could pick up the phone, tell Glifira that one of her clients was in the market for a work by a specific artist, and what would you know? 

[00:00:19] A couple months later, Mr. X's kids decide that they want to sell an artwork that met that exact brief. 

[00:00:25] Adam Cox: Can you imagine like, Oh, no, I've got nothing like that. Oh, wait, just something under the sofa. 

[00:00:29] Kyle Risi: Oh, where did this come from? 

[00:00:31] Adam Cox: She's on the phone at the same time whilst painting and she scraps that and she starts again. She's like, yeah, no, I can probably find something for you. And her husband Jose comes in and goes, 

[00:00:40] Kyle Risi: that was a really nice cat. And basically this is how business went until the early 2000s. [00:01:00]

[00:01:12] Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. A weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. We explore stories from the realms of history, true crime, and extraordinary people.

[00:01:28] I'm your ringmaster this week, Kyle Recy.

[00:01:30] Adam Cox: And I'm your Tickle Monster this week, Adam Cox. 

[00:01:33] Kyle Risi: Oh, you're for a little tickle, are ya? Yeah. A little tickle behind the ears. I think so. 

[00:01:38] Adam Cox: I don't know where these are going.

[00:01:39] Every week. They're getting worse. 

[00:01:42] Kyle Risi: But I'm surprised that you're even coming up with anything. 

[00:01:44] Adam Cox: When 

[00:01:45] Kyle Risi: I'm 

[00:01:45] Adam Cox: It is a real struggle. 

[00:01:47] Kyle Risi: I'm waiting for the day where you just go, and I'm Adam Cox, your co host. Because that's okay too, you know. 

[00:01:53] Adam Cox: Oh, really? 

[00:01:54] Kyle Risi: I thought 

[00:01:54] Adam Cox: I had to have a role in this circus.

[00:01:55] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but like for like a couple weeks. Jesus. Oh. But no, this is [00:02:00] great. Let's see, let's see how far you can take it. Okay, fine. Maybe, uh, some listeners can, uh, write in with some suggestions on what you can be each week. 

[00:02:05] Adam Cox: Yeah, try and come up with something better. 

[00:02:07] Kyle Risi: I'm sure Holly would have a few ideas on what you could be. Okay. Adam. So in today's compendium we are diving into an assembly of priceless paintings, that weren't so priceless. after all. 

[00:02:19] Adam Cox: So someone was trying to like sell some dodgy paintings, but actually they were famous paintings. 

[00:02:24] Kyle Risi: Adam, today we're diving into one of the most astonishing cases of art fraud in history.

[00:02:28] A scandal so audacious it shook the art world to its core. Today's story revolves around a prestigious gallery in New York City where its director, a woman named Anne Friedman, over the course of 15 years acquired more than 60 paintings from a woman Each one of these paintings was believed to be a long lost masterpiece by some of the world's most renowned artists. We're talking Jackson Pollock's, Robert Motherwell's, Mark Rothko's, by [00:03:00] all appearances and being from one of the most reputable galleries in the world, went on to authenticate each painting in turn, eventually selling them to some of the world's wealthiest individuals, only for it to later transpire. That every single one of those damn paintings was a complete fake.

[00:03:17] Oh, okay. Today, I'm going to be telling you about the infamous Nodler Gallery scandal, a story that will make you wonder, how on earth could the authenticity of these works evade the eyes of some of the world's leading experts, collectors and institutions in the world? Did Anne know that these works were fake when she sold them? And were there any red flags along the way?

[00:03:43] This story is the story of the biggest art forgery scandal in American history. What do you know about the story, Adam? 

[00:03:50] Adam Cox: I don't know that you've said that. It's prompted something in the dark corners of my mind that maybe I know just a tiny thing about this.

[00:03:58] Kyle Risi: Or something's ringing a bell, [00:04:00] right? 

[00:04:00] Adam Cox: Yeah, like some woman didn't realise what she was doing, but then she did know what she was doing. I don't know. 

[00:04:06] Kyle Risi: I'm really excited about today's episode. But of course, before we dive in, it's time for 

[00:04:11] Adam Cox: All the latest things.

[00:04:13] Kyle Risi: This is a segment of our show where we catch up on all the latest things we've discovered over the last seven days, from weird news to mind boggling facts. This is All The Latest Things. Adam, what have you got for us today? 

[00:04:28] Adam Cox: So this week, Kyle, I've learned that Anna Delvey. Ooh, Anna Delvey! Yes, actually, I've got two stories today, and they both reference either a podcast episode or a latest thing that we've done in the past.

[00:04:41] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:04:41] Adam Cox: So, updates. Anna Delvey, She's been announced to be on, Dancing with the Stars in America. 

[00:04:49] Kyle Risi: That's like the equivalent of We don't have Dancing with the Stars here, do we? No, 

[00:04:51] Adam Cox: we have Strictly Come Dancing. Ah, right., 

[00:04:53] Kyle Risi: and she 

[00:04:54] Adam Cox: is gonna be dancing with A, uh. Lesbian. No. A woman. No, [00:05:00] with a ankle brace. Ha ha 

[00:05:01] Kyle Risi: ha ha 

[00:05:02] Adam Cox: ha! Because she's 

[00:05:02] Kyle Risi: under 

[00:05:03] Adam Cox: house arrest. 

[00:05:04] Because she's under house arrest. How is she allowed? Well, this is the thing, because Whoopi Goldberg, um, well, has been pissed. She's been expressing her opinion on The View, saying that she's taking an opportunity away from someone who isn't a criminal, and that maybe she should focus on paying the people that she stole money from back.

[00:05:21] Kyle Risi: But maybe this is how she does it, right? Because I doubt she'll be able to keep the money from whatever she gets from this. Just like with the Netflix. I know there was some shady deals and kind of secret handshakes around the back the van. But, That money would potentially go to paying off 

[00:05:36] Adam Cox: this is the thing, because she says, Well, actually, I've paid back everyone I owed.

[00:05:40] Has she? I was like, how did you 

[00:05:41] Kyle Risi: do 

[00:05:41] Adam Cox: that? 

[00:05:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Because I thought you'd 

[00:05:42] Adam Cox: been in prison and not allowed to make money. Oh, she's been sending 

[00:05:44] Kyle Risi: those shitty paintings. 

[00:05:45] Adam Cox: Yeah, or whatever she's been up to. And she, she was ordered to pay a restitution of around 200, 000, I thought, or from what I read. That's not much, is it?

[00:05:54] Not a lot. And there might have been some additional bits on top of that. So she's been able to kind of at least fund [00:06:00] that to pay it back. Supposedly, that's what her lawyer said. 

[00:06:02] Kyle Risi: And she's hot topic, right? People want a piece of her. And you know, I wouldn't be surprised if the Netflix deal gave her more than 200, 000.

[00:06:09] Adam Cox: Something's happened. Maybe she's done cameos. Who knows what she's done? But yeah, she's played that back and she's saying what are they gonna do arrest me for bad dancing But have you seen what she looks like because she has had a glow up really yeah how would you describe her when we did the podcast like 

[00:06:28] Kyle Risi: quite mousy looking? Looks like she's wearing her big sister's clothing because everything just look quite big on her Just Very young and juvenile. Should I show you her promo picture for Dancing 

[00:06:39] Adam Cox: with the Stars? Hubba 

[00:06:40] Kyle Risi: hubba, wow! She's got quite a handsome face. It's quite square, isn't it? she's got a handsome jawline.

[00:06:50] Adam Cox: If you scroll down 

[00:06:51] Kyle Risi: Oh no. Ah. Ankle bracelet, . Yeah. She's wearing a, what do you even call that? Like a, it's like a tag tag, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. For [00:07:00] criminals that criminals wear, but she's rocking it. That foot is forward . She's making sure that that is the foot that everyone can see. Yeah, 

[00:07:07] Adam Cox: exactly. And it's causing obviously some publicity for the show coming back.

[00:07:11] Course. Course, which is probably in, its like 30th season or something like that. Yeah. I'd watch it, just to see her. Exactly, and obviously people that are fans of her are gonna tune in. But what I don't get is, how has she still got that bracelet? Because she got let out of prison for doing her time.

[00:07:26] But then I think She overstayed her visa. 

[00:07:28] Kyle Risi: That's right. Yeah, she was meant to have gone back in the October, I think. 

[00:07:32] Adam Cox: Yeah, but what I don't get is why is she under house arrest and staying in America when they wanted to deport her anyway? 

[00:07:40] Kyle Risi: Oh, yeah, I don't know. Actually, that's a really good point.

[00:07:43] Do you, what, are you suggesting that the ankle bracelet is just all for show? I don't know. She just bought it from eBay. I don't know if it's all for show, 

[00:07:50] Adam Cox: but I just, I don't really get it. But there's probably a story if I actually researched it. Yeah. That's probably a reason why. But yeah, I just found that very odd. If you didn't want to hear her in the country Just deport her. Don't [00:08:00] put her on house arrest. 

[00:08:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah, yeah, probably like someone wanted to keep her here because of some kind of deal that they could make money from so they had a vested interest in keeping her here because I don't know, they could sell some. Yeah. Netflix documentary probably. 

[00:08:12] Adam Cox: So we'll have to see how well she does when she makes it to the final, but that was, uh, yeah, that's my first piece. And then my second piece this week is an update on, the Suicide Pod. That I spoke about maybe a few weeks back.

[00:08:24] Oh 

[00:08:24] Kyle Risi: yeah, in Switzerland. 

[00:08:25] Adam Cox: Yeah, so the first UK couple has signed up to, go through with this. What, together? Yeah, because In the same pod? There's a double pod you can get for yourself and a partner. 

[00:08:36] Kyle Risi: Are they both ill? I thought it was more for like terminal people. 

[00:08:39] Adam Cox: It is for that. So there's a couple called Peter and Christine. They're in their 80s and After 46 years of marriage, they're choosing to end it all. End it all! Divorce 

[00:08:49] Kyle Risi: is not good enough! 

[00:08:51] Adam Cox: Well, she, uh, Christine, she was diagnosed with vascular dementia, which means that's gonna be a deteriorating disease And I don't think, [00:09:00] Peter didn't want to, like, Carry on without her. So there's nothing wrong with Peter. I don't think so, but he just didn't want to live, without her, essentially. And Christine had helped those, uh, end of life, and had seen what it does. This particular disease. It's the dignity, isn't it? Yeah. 

[00:09:14] It's, 

[00:09:14] Kyle Risi: you don't want to die losing your dignity and having someone wait on your hand and foot.

[00:09:20] Adam Cox: Mm. And when they go, to the pod in Switzerland, they get asked three questions before proceeding. They ask, who are you? Where are you? And do you know what happens when you press the button in the machine?

[00:09:33] Kyle Risi: But the thing is, though, she needs to hurry up then because if she's got this neurological disorder, she might not be able to answer those questions later down the line. 

[00:09:39] Adam Cox: And there's only one button. So you have to choose who's going to press that button. So that's kind ofa weird situation and plus it also gets recorded so that, I think there's backed up footage to show that they're going through with it and not being coerced or anything.

[00:09:54] Kyle Risi: Yeah. If I was gonna make that decision, we were going to do [00:10:00] it together. Like I would, as a husband and wife duo, you're the wife, I would totally make a joke of the fact that I'm pressing the button because I've always wanted to kill you. Right. Right. But then one of them goes, wait a second.

[00:10:13] I changed my mind. Too late. It's like when you, get ready to jump into the pool and you go, let's do it together on three. One, two, and then one of us jumps in. It's the biggest betrayal. In the world. What if it's like a bit like that and the gas starts seeping and you go, Oh, no, I don't want this.

[00:10:28] Adam Cox: Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, it's what a, what an experience to do. And I completely understand it if, she's not going to be capable and just not. It's just going to be a shell of her former self, but um, yeah, it's just quite interesting. It's a very weird procedure and they're looking to try and bring it to the UK, but I don't understand how that's ever going to, you know, there isn't that.

[00:10:48] Kyle Risi: I mean, based on the cuts that the NHS are making, it's probably going to be something that they, Consider, but I think it's a healthy thing to do, especially when you get to the age where you [00:11:00] are more dependent on other people and you have lived a very full independent life, which is what they say. Yeah, and you don't want to go back and be dependent on someone, that's my biggest fear. Um, I would, I would do it. 

[00:11:11] Adam Cox: yeah, we'll have to see how their story plays out. but yeah, that's all my latest things for this week 

[00:11:15] Kyle Risi: I mean apart from Anna Delvey This is becoming a bit of a morbid kind of all the latest things because mine's a bit morbid as well I don't know.

[00:11:22] So maybe we should have done Anna Delvey last Yeah, maybe but mine is a little bit appropriate for today's episode. It's 

[00:11:30] What if a robot arm could tell us more about the human experience? Okay, so this is about an art installation from 2016 called I Can't Help Myself and it's by an artist called Sun, Wan and Peng Yu.

[00:11:49] Obviously they're from China and it's genuinely heartbreaking and I never thought a piece of art would affect me in this way, but the installation features a [00:12:00] huge industrial robot arm. And it's in this kind of like big white room.

[00:12:04] And imagine like a robotic arm that you might see at a car factory on a, an assembly line, and it operates using hydraulic fluid to move the arm up and down, but it's a robot and it has a leak, which means that All the hydraulic fluid is spilling out from the base and it's spreading out all around it like in a radial kind of like fashion.

[00:12:25] Right. And the hydraulic fluid is coloured red so it looks a bit like blood and it's essentially looks like it's bleeding out. Mm hmm. the arm is programmed to contain the hydraulic fluid. So it uses this big giant squeegee attached to the end of it and it pulls the fluid towards its base. And then I assume that it goes back into the robot and keeps it functioning.

[00:12:48] And if too much of the fluid escapes before it's able to kind of squeegee it back into the system, the robot will then shut down and essentially die. 

[00:12:58] So the saddest [00:13:00] part. Is that they gave the robot the ability to perform like these happy dancers in between squeeging the fluid So it's like putting on a bit of a show for the spectators who are coming to see it.

[00:13:10] when the project was first launched, it would like dance around a bit spending its time kind of interacting with the crowd, So over time it progressively gets harder and harder for it to contain the fluid because the leak gets progressively worse and worse So ends up spending less time enjoying itself and more time desperately trying to squeegee the fluid to keep itself functioning for another day 

[00:13:33] And so as time goes on, it's eventually caught up in this endless cycle of just squeegeeing this fluid towards itself. And then in 2019, it finally ran out of hydraulic fluid and just slowly died. And loads of people gathered in to watch it die.

[00:13:47] And it's really sad because it was literally programmed to live out its fate in this way. Like, that's what it was programmed to do. 

[00:13:55] Adam Cox: It was really sad, 

[00:13:56] Kyle Risi: yeah. Isn't that awful? And obviously, no matter what it [00:14:00] did, no matter how hard it tried, there was just no escaping the inevitable.

[00:14:03] So, according to the artists, the hydraulic fluid symbolizes how we exhaust ourselves mentally and physically just to keep up in a modern day economy to sustain our own lives And it's supposed to be kind of this commentary on how we're enslaved to the system and how the system steals It's best years from us.

[00:14:22] Adam Cox: That is, uh, that's very true. I feel 

[00:14:24] Kyle Risi: it's just awful Adam and you can go on the internet and you can watch this video. You can watch this robotic arm in this big enclosure, just scooping this hydraulic fluid, dragging it towards itself. and obviously it's been going on since 2016, so four years, just nonstop.

[00:14:40] So it's was this very sterile kind of beautiful pristine room when it started doing it like almost like a hospital room where life starts, but then by the end of it looked like a damn abattoir 

[00:14:53] Adam Cox: Wow, what a commentary on real life on 

[00:14:56] Kyle Risi: real life. Damn. 

[00:14:58] Adam Cox: Yeah, I need a career change 

[00:14:59] Kyle Risi: [00:15:00] Yeah, exactly. That's what this is saying. I feel like wasting your life. 

[00:15:02] Adam Cox: I feel like I have a lot of fluid Um, that's not what I 

[00:15:08] Kyle Risi: meant. Yes, you do. What's the main topic again today? Well, I guess that's all my latest things. Shall we get on with the Noda Gallery Scandal for this week?

[00:15:17] Let's do it. 

[00:15:18] So Adam, today's story really kicks off in late 2011, but its lead up spanned more than 20 years. When the scandal broke in 2011, people connected to the art world, were all suddenly in a state of shock when out of the blue the Knoedler Gallery in New York announced it was closing with immediate effect.

[00:15:41] And this was significant because the gallery had been running for more than 165 years. It had survived the American Civil War, two world wars, and it was the second oldest gallery in the United States a highly respected institution. So nobody expected that it would just Suddenly [00:16:00] disappear without any warning whatsoever.

[00:16:03] A few days later after all the confusion had died down, media uncovered that the day before the announcement a lawsuit had been filed against Knoedler by a former client who had purchased a Jackson Pollock painting for 17 million dollars and that painting turned out to be a fake. That's when the rest of the world became very interested to know how a masterpiece of this caliber was able to evade the expert eye of some of the best experts in the world.

[00:16:28] And from here, bit by bit, the truth began to emerge. 

[00:16:34] Adam Cox: I see. So, um, I don't know much about this painting or this painter. So this is 17 million. That's a lot. 

[00:16:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So Jackson Pollock, so he's really famous for drips of paint. So imagine like you just grab a paintbrush and it's loaded with paint and then you make these little like swirls all over the painting.

[00:16:51] We've seen one before in New York, I believe. I want to say, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I think it's the Native American Museum, I [00:17:00] think. In New York, when you go in, they have, a few really famous paintings and one of them is a Jackson Pollock. And it just looks like,a bunch of paint that's just fallen on a factory floor and they just thought, Oh, that's really pretty and they just, like, peeled it off and they, like, put that onto a canvas, essentially.

[00:17:15] And 17 million. 17 million dollars. I will never get art, but okay. 

[00:17:19] So to understand what happened, we need to go back to the early 1990s when a woman named Anne Friedman took over as director of the Noda Gallery. Okay. Anne had been working at the gallery since the late 1970s and she'd managed to prove herself as an incredible salesman despite being relatively young, she had managed to claw her way up to the position of director for one of the best galleries in the world.

[00:17:42] At this point, Anne was only in her early 40s and was unmatched in her skill in being able to pair the perfect artwork with the perfect client, making the gallery a ton of money in the process. Now, let's Nodler wasn't just a gallery, they also procured works on [00:18:00] behalf of clients looking for specific works by well known artists.

[00:18:03] So Nodler would then scout the market for a seller, and they would make the deal happen at any cost. So Nodler was like the big time. Mm-Hmm, . Now, the man who owned the gallery was a guy called Michael Hammer.

[00:18:16] He was the grandson of industrialist, Armand Hammer, a big kind of oil tycoon. Now he's also the father of actor army Hammer. 

[00:18:25] Adam Cox: I was gonna ask, is there a relationship there? There 

[00:18:28] Kyle Risi: is, yeah. So you may remember, obviously he played, the Winklevoss twins in the social network. Mm-Hmm. And also of course, Oliver, in my favorite film. Call Me By Your name, the one with the peach. The one where the guy. Sexed a peach. If you haven't seen it, it's a classic modern masterpiece.

[00:18:46] It was a masterpiece to watch. So if you're not familiar with these movies, then you might remember him from 2021 when it surfaced that Armie Hammer had allegedly exchanged explicit messages with a bunch of women. discussing his sexual fantasies [00:19:00] that involve violence and cannibalism. Cannibalism. Yeah, he's the infamous Tone Nibbler. 

[00:19:05] Adam Cox: Yeah. Although I think he denied it and said like, I was just joking, but I don't know. 

[00:19:09] Kyle Risi: Since then a bunch of women have come forward with stories, which It's kind of obviously led to his cancellation, and then his eventual divorce. And at the time, this was extremely shocking because Armie Hammer was a rising star amongst kind of the Hollywood elites, and he was seen as this very respectable Hollywood family man.

[00:19:25] Adam Cox: Yeah, last film he was in was in that Pyro movie? 

[00:19:29] Kyle Risi: Oh, I don't know. 

[00:19:29] Adam Cox: Oh, you know, Murder on the Orient Express. 

[00:19:32] Kyle Risi: Ah, yes. I'm 

[00:19:33] Adam Cox: you mean Poirot? I thought you said Pyro. I was like, Poirot? Poirot. Poirot. he had been cancelled and that film came out after his cancellation. Oh, did it do well? I think it did. I think people were willing to look past that because I think his role was relatively small. 

[00:19:46] Kyle Risi: He just nibbled on a toe. 

[00:19:48] Adam Cox: I mean, we do talk about that to kids, don't we? This little piggy went to market. Yeah. 

[00:19:52] Kyle Risi: Maybe it's like deep rooted trauma from his childhood where maybe his mum kept like nibbling [00:20:00] at his toes and he just in a weird, twisted way, adopted some kind of weird sexual association with this little piggy.

[00:20:08] Yeah. I don't know. It could happen. But anyway, Michael Hammer is Armie Hammer's dad. Very rich, very connected, with a very long family history. 

[00:20:17] Adam Cox: I bet that helps you getting into the acting industry.

[00:20:20] Kyle Risi: Oh yeah, 100%. A bit of nepotism. Bit of a nepo baby. I mean, he's very good. So, so despite landing obviously her dream job, this is Anne we're talking about as director of the gallery. She also knew that her position was under threat from the very beginning because Michael Hammer had always made it clear that despite the gallery's 165 year old history, if the gallery was not profitable, he had no issue shutting it down.

[00:20:46] So he had no sentimental attachment to this gallery, even though it was 165 years old. So for Anne, the pressure to succeed Was so intense. Then in the 1990s, a bunch of new galleries were beginning to [00:21:00] open up downtown and Knoedler was starting to look a bit tattered, a bit crusty, and so for the sake of her job and needed to make Knoedler relevant again.

[00:21:09] So just when she needed it the most, she is introduced to a woman called Glafira Rosales.. Now, a Mexican immigrant who was living in Long Island at the time and she'd recently made friends with one of Anne's assistants, a guy called Jamie Andrand. 

[00:21:24] And she told Jamie that she ran her own little independent gallery and through this the pair really hit it off pretty quickly. When she finally had an in with Jamie she asked if she could be introduced to Anne saying that she had been asked by a family friend to sell artworks previously owned by their father who over the years had collected works by some of the most prominent artists in the world.

[00:21:45] But Glifira felt underqualified for the task and knew that Anne was renowned for her expert abilities at this level. So Jamie agrees and arranges a meeting with Anne. And at the first meeting, Glafira shows [00:22:00] up with two paintings by abstract expressionist artist named Richard Diebenkorn. I Richard had recently died early that year and naturally Anne asked, like, how the hell did you get your hands on these works?

[00:22:12] To which Glafira says that she grew up in Mexico City, and her parents were these wealthy art dealers. And one of their best friends, whom she couldn't reveal the name, had just recently died and his kids want to set off some of the pieces of their father's collection. So they reached out to Clefera, because of course they knew that she had connections in the art world.

[00:22:33] So to Anne the story seemed Extremely plausible. She agreed to sell the Diebenkorns and when they started talking details Glifira says that the family didn't care about money at all They just wanted to ensure that the artworks went to a collector who would love them as much as their father 

[00:22:51] Adam Cox: it's about the money. It's 

[00:22:52] Kyle Risi: about the money. Exactly. So that should have been the first red flag Because when it comes to rich people, you'll find that they often care more about [00:23:00] money than poor people do So, instead, Anne doesn't question this, perhaps greed takes over, or she thought that the prospects of her selling them, would be the perfect thing to help her put Nodler back on the map and potentially save her job.

[00:23:13] Right, okay. So Anne is thrilled. These were never before seen demon corns and they've been hidden away in a private collection in Mexico for 40 years. Before Anne could start finding a buyer though she first needed to show the works off to a few people to drive some hype around the discovery. At the same time, she also invites Diebenkorn's widow and daughter to come and see the works. 

[00:23:36] Adam Cox: Okay, so are they going to recognize these works? Or are they going to be like, Hang on a minute. I don't remember these ones. 

[00:23:43] Kyle Risi: You're so good. Immediately they are suspicious because Richard Diebenkorn's wife made sure to keep meticulous records of every single artwork that he ever produced and she didn't remember these two paintings.

[00:23:53] But even though she didn't think these were real Diebenkorns, she had been told by her lawyer never to [00:24:00] say anything that would cast doubt on the authenticity of any Diebenkorn because this could potentially result in her or anyone being sued for defamation of property. So if she was going to refute the authenticity of this work, she first needs to be able to prove without kind of reasonable doubt. It was definitely a fake. 

[00:24:18] Now, this seems totally messed up to us today, but this is how the art world works because often these artworks are purchased as investments, right? So if someone comes forward and casts doubts on a painting's authenticity, this could potentially collapse the value of the actual painting, even if the work is real.

[00:24:36] Because now that it's got this black mark against it, It's potentially going to make it harder for people to sell it in the future.

[00:24:42] But just because Diebenkorn's widow couldn't remember ever seeing the painting didn't necessarily mean that it was fake it wasn't uncommon for artists to sell their works at very low prices just to be able to pay the rent or buy some food, when they were first starting out., so it is plausible for these paintings to go missing or to be sold cheaply, only to resurface [00:25:00] later. So even though Diebenkorn's window suspected the paintings are fake. She just looks at the painting and says they're nice, and then she just leaves. 

[00:25:07] But here's the kicker, because a few months later, Anne writes to Mrs. Diebenkorn thanking her for coming in and authenticating the painting, saying that her endorsement has made a huge difference in helping to sell the painting. the actual paintings themselves. And Mrs. Diebenkorn is, of course, furious because she absolutely 100 percent did not authenticate the paintings at all. Anne has misconstrued her not outright saying that the painting was a fake as an endorsement. 

[00:25:32] Adam Cox: Yeah, I mean, if you didn't deny it, then you must be going along with it.

[00:25:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. So Anne actually ended up selling each of the paintings for 95, 000 each, giving Glifira 40, 000 of that. 

[00:25:44] So a couple of months later, Glifira returns back to Nodler. This time she has with her a Mark Rothko. Now he's another abstract expressionist painting and Rothko was obsessed with colour and he was famous for painting these big, large rectangular blocks on really [00:26:00] large canvases, right?

[00:26:01] We actually saw one when we went to the Rockefeller Centre but basically, it's two big giant squares on this big giant canvas. 

[00:26:07] Adam Cox: More pointless art. 

[00:26:09] Kyle Risi: Well, the idea behind the art is that you would stand 18 inches away from it. So you get really close to it And the painting is designed to immerse you in these color fields And then you're supposed to test what kind of emotions are evoked within the viewer while you're kind of staring at these color blocks.

[00:26:28] So you're supposed to get really into it. And they typically will show two colors next to each other, sometimes three colors next to each other. And because you're in close proximity to it, they have different effects. So that's kind of like Mark Rothko's work. 

[00:26:40] Adam Cox: Right, okay. 

[00:26:41] Kyle Risi: So again, it's claimed by Glavira that this is a previously unknown piece of artwork. And this is big because during the 1990s, Rothko's work were experiencing a massive surge in popularity. So Anne says to Glavira, I'm definitely going to need more information about these family friends of yours, because this art collection is [00:27:00] just incredible. Like I need to know who these people are.

[00:27:02] Adam Cox: Yeah, who's painting this in your living room? 

[00:27:05] Kyle Risi: Ah! 

[00:27:05] Adam Cox: Ah! 

[00:27:06] Kyle Risi: So Glafira, happy to oblige, but she makes it very clear that she can't give any names. She says that the parents of her friend, whom she will refer to as Mr. X, Right. had emigrated from Europe to Mexico at the end of World War II and decided that he wanted to start up his own collection of American art abstract expressionists for both of his homes in Mexico City and his European home in Switzerland.

[00:27:30] So she says that throughout the 1950s, Mr. X and his wife spent a few months in New York on massive shopping sprees, and they were guided by this high profile art dealer named Alfonso Osorio and he's a very well connected dealer to all the kind of major american artists at the time in the 1950s So he knew where their studios were he had very close relationships with them He'd help elevate their profile get them in magazines and just help market them essentially [00:28:00] make them big

[00:28:01] So On one of their trips, Alfonso takes them to see various studios where they end up purchasing multiple artworks for cash Receiving significant discounts in the process because they were buying so many pieces in bulk Also, the transactions would be done under the table so that the struggling artists didn't have to pay tax and remember this wasn't something that was that unusual Okay, these artists they did struggle very few of them were ever You really successful in their lifetime.

[00:28:29] So a lot of them were struggling artists. So Glifira was like, this is why it's really important that you keep the family name anonymous because they didn't pay tax either and they also don't want to incriminate these artists. 

[00:28:42] Adam Cox: Right, so it sounds kind of plausible.

[00:28:45] Kyle Risi: Exactly, that's exactly what Anne says. So she agrees to find a buyer for this incredible, never before seen Rothko. And Anne starts spreading the word. She invites a bunch of experts from all over and the general consensus is that it is amazing. They coined this [00:29:00] as the most important discovery in the art world in the past decade. But as the experts start looking at the painting a little closer, serious questions about its authenticity begin to emerge. 

[00:29:11] Adam Cox: So they're not just drinking the Kool Aid, some are actually going, Oh, hang on a minute.

[00:29:16] Kyle Risi: That's it. So for instance, the painting displays kind of crossbar marks, which happens when the support structure of the frame at the back leaves an impression across the center of the canvas. So imagine when you were a kid you'd like grab a piece of paper and you put it over like a storm grate and then you'd get your crayon and you'd Kind of sketch over and leaves like their pattern. Yeah. It's kind of like that. It leaves a very faint kind of like mark across the canvas. 

[00:29:42] Okay. And that was unusual 

[00:29:44] It was unusual because Rothko was known for these large uninterrupted blocks of color that were meant to be viewed from 18 inches away, right? So he never used a crossbar on his frames because he didn't want any imperfections from kind of distracting from the emotions that he was trying to evoke inside of you.

[00:29:59] So, [00:30:00] like, having a crossbar across that painting was a bit of a red flag. The painting also used materials that Rothko never used such as primers. Rothko was always the type of artist to use rabbit skin glues instead of primers. Also the work used polymer emulsions which Rothko didn't start using until the mid 1960s which was 10 years after this particular work was supposed to have been created.

[00:30:26] But another issue was that the work lacked any clear provenance. Now, a provenance refers to the documented history that traces the painting's ownership back to its creation. Of course, Anne said that this was because artists often sold paintings early in their careers, so of course that story is plausible.

[00:30:45] It meant that these works were never ever catalogued in what they call the catalog resume. So basically that's like a comprehensive annotated listing of all known works by an artist. And these catalogs are [00:31:00] created through a lot of research over decades by very intelligent PhD level people that go off researching paintings and making sure that they're all part of the same artist, right?

[00:31:11] Right. So, it raises some significant doubts about a work's authenticity if it's not in that book. And this is obviously not in that book. So they're like, did he paint it? Essentially. 

[00:31:22] Adam Cox: I know exactly what you mean. you see something online and then you go look in the Argos catalogue and it's not in there.

[00:31:26] Kyle Risi: It's not in there. It's exactly the same thing. But again, this can be explained by the fact that the painting never ever left Mr X's collection or changed hands. If it ever did, it may have potentially ended up in the catalog resume, but it never left his collection.

[00:31:41] So it's rare, but this is possible. This can happen. 

[00:31:45] Adam Cox: I'm sorry, anyone that you're involved with called Mr. X, you probably should ask some questions.

[00:31:52] Kyle Risi: But rich people, sometimes they like to stay anonymous. 

[00:31:54] Adam Cox: Yeah, but anything like, I think of like Twitter, that's now called X. 

[00:31:58] Kyle Risi: Okay, and I know we're playing this [00:32:00] game, I'm playing devil's advocate, etc. We know that these paintings are fake anyway. So of course we are being 

[00:32:05] Adam Cox: It's difficult. Difficult. Difficult.

[00:32:08] Are you calling me difficult? I'm calling you very difficult. Fine. Okay. So she kind of turns a blind eye and goes like, well, you probably should keep some better logs, but fine. I will take this as being authentic. 

[00:32:18] Kyle Risi: Well, the thing is that that's twice now she's kind of turned a blind eye, right? 

[00:32:21] So in spite of all of this the experts think that the work is beautiful. But they stopped short of saying that it's not authentic because of course it's not the done thing to do, right? They didn't want to be sued. So Anne treats this acknowledgement of just seeing the works as an endorsement of its authenticity. And so with that, she finds a buyer. And that is a guy called Domenico and his wife Eleanor de Sol, who are already Very highly acclaimed seasoned art collectors, and of course, just like the Diebenkorns, this one is fake as well.

[00:32:55] So in hindsight, people will eventually question why Domenico doesn't suspect the painting to be a fake, [00:33:00] being obviously a seasoned art collector himself and a lawyer. He was also the former president of Gucci. So he's into kind of all this kind of fine art stuff, detail and like authenticity and like using the right leathers and fabrics and stuff like he would have an eye for that. 

[00:33:16] He's fancy spancy. In my view, this was really misguided when I was reading about this, because for Domenico and his wife, owning artworks is just more of a prestige, something that they can show off and cherish.

[00:33:26] They don't need to be an expert to own a masterpiece. Do you know what I mean? And as he puts it, like when you fall in love with something, you often overlook some of its flaws just by the sheer prospect of owning something incredible. So he wasn't looking for the flaws and the problems . After all, that's what he was trusting Anne for. 

[00:33:44] Adam Cox: Yeah, that's what you're paying them to do. Exactly. That's why people go to people like Anne. It's only if you got at home and I don't know, you rubbed it and then realized there was something underneath. 

[00:33:53] Kyle Risi: Oh my god, this is made of candy.

[00:33:54] Yeah. And so, obviously, following the sale of the Rothko, Anne and the Nodler Gallery [00:34:00] are well on their way to being back at the top of their game. The news of the Rothko results in huge buzz across the industry. Anne is having articles written about her and she's been contacted and endorsed as kind of once again, one of the most important deeders of the industry.

[00:34:16] So she's back on top. 

[00:34:17] Adam Cox: Has she questioned anything or is she like, I don't know. actually believing they're all real at this point? 

[00:34:22] Kyle Risi: Well, this is what we're going to find out, right? Okay. Like, why did she not listen to all these red flags? We're going to get to some of the red flags. Okay. And it's going to be like, you're an idiot woman. You are retarded. Well, I'm already thinking that, but okay, carry on. 

[00:34:38] So over the next few years, Glifira will visit Nodler. two or three times a year and each time she will come with new previously undiscovered pieces from Mr X's collection. All of which, of course, fake. More Rothko's, more Jackson Pollock's, a few Andy Warhol's and a bunch of other paintings from another artist called Robert Motherwell.

[00:34:58] And I think [00:35:00] Lefebvre targeted Anne specifically. Because she's gullible. Because I guess she just really excelled at identifying vulnerabilities in Anne. Remember, like, Anne was approached during a time when the gallery was struggling, right? So she kind of identified that this woman is going to be a little more gullible. 

[00:35:16] Adam Cox: Yeah, she's got something to prove. She's going to perhaps be easier to coerce. Exactly. And also maybe she recognized that Anne's actually a very good salesperson. So if anyone's going to sell a fake. 

[00:35:26] Kyle Risi: Possibly, and also remember. Michael Hammer. He wouldn't hesitate to shut it all down if it wasn't making money. So I think it's fair to say that Anne was susceptible to Glifira's scams, either knowingly or unknowingly.

[00:35:37] So each time Glifira came in with a new painting and would agree to sell it, she would pay of course Glifira ridiculously low price. For kind of the painting and then mark it up by obscene margins.

[00:35:49] Like it was normal for a work to be marked up by around about a hundred percent. Like across the industry. Mm-Hmm. , that's normal. But Anne was marking these paintings up by as much as 800%. So for example, the Rothko [00:36:00] was bought by Anne for $950,000. Mm-Hmm. And she sold the bastard for. 8. 3 million.

[00:36:07] Did she get commission on this? Yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. Damn. Yeah. And again, within that itself, there is another red flag because it seems like Glifira was just relieved to get any money at all. But if you genuinely sold someone a painting for 950, 000 and then you go off and sell it for 8. 3 billion, you'd be like, hang on a minute, you ripped me off.

[00:36:31] But Glifira just keeps saying the family doesn't care about money, they just want the paintings to go to a good home. She's full of shit. Big another red massive flag. 

[00:36:39] Adam Cox: Yeah, and also I guess she's oh, can I get away with this? I'm gonna get 950, 000. That's it. I'll be happy with that.

[00:36:45] Kyle Risi: And that should be a red flag in itself. Like, isn't she an art dealer herself? 

[00:36:49] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:36:50] Kyle Risi: So over time, Glifira and Anne, understandably, they become very good friends. They even swap birthday gifts every year. At one point, Glifira's daughter is invited to work as an intern at the [00:37:00] gallery.

[00:37:00] It got to the point where Anne could pick up the phone, tell Glifira that one of her clients was in the market for a work by a specific artist, and what would you know? A couple months later, Mr. X's kids decide that they want to sell an artwork that met that exact brief. 

[00:37:17] Adam Cox: Can you imagine like, Oh, no, I've got nothing like that. Oh, wait, just something under the sofa. 

[00:37:20] Kyle Risi: Oh, where did this come from? 

[00:37:22] Adam Cox: she's on the phone at the same time whilst painting and she scraps that and she starts again. She's like, yeah, no, I can probably find something for you. And her husband Jose comes in and goes, 

[00:37:31] Kyle Risi: that was a really nice cat. And basically this is how business went until the early 2000s.

[00:37:37] That is until the collector named Jack Levy, who had already bought a few items from Mr. X's collection, decided to buy a Jackson Pollock from Anne for a cool two million dollars. Now given the amount of money that he was paying for this Pollock, he decides to kind of err on the side of caution a bit and he sends the work off to be forensically authenticated by the International [00:38:00] Foundation of Art Research, or IFAR for short.

[00:38:03] Adam Cox: So he's bought a couple already from her. What's fine with it, but now going, oh, actually there's next one, I will get it checked. 

[00:38:10] Kyle Risi: I think it's because it's such a huge amount of money, and it's a Pollock, right? It's probably the most prestigious one that he's bought. He just wants to get it checked. So after a few months, IFAR gets back to him, and they say they are unwilling to authenticate the Pollock.

[00:38:23] They didn't outright call it a fake, remember, They didn't want to get sued. They just point out that the painting contained colors never before seen in a Pollock. Also, the style was inconsistent with Pollock's work. But also, they did not buy the story that Pollock ever sold works off the books from the back of his studio when he was already the wealthiest, most famous artist in America at the time. So why would he need to be selling his paintings? off the books. That's what's being claimed here. 

[00:38:53] Adam Cox: Right. Okay. So they're saying like, it's a very good looking Pollock, but they think it's fake [00:39:00] basically. They can't say that. Fine. Okay. 

[00:39:02] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So Jack Levy takes a painting back to Knoedler and he demands a refund. But Anne, of course, disputes IFAR's report saying, Oh, what the hell would they know? Trust me. I'm telling you. This is a real Pollock. But Jack insists and he wants a refund, so reluctantly she gives him his two million dollars back. But rather than then investigating the IFAR report, Anne just fucking puts the painting right back on the market and bumps the price up from two million dollars to eleven million fucking dollars.

[00:39:33] Adam Cox: Where does she even think that was a good idea? 

[00:39:35] Kyle Risi: The justification is that, works for abstract expressionist artists at the time were just exploding and since it had been a few months since she made the initial sale, the value had gone up so significantly, so that's what the price of Pollux were going for at the time. So that justified it for her in her mind. Isn't that mental? 

[00:39:54] Adam Cox: This woman. She's 

[00:39:55] Kyle Risi: Anne did however meet up with Glafira to try and smooth things out because [00:40:00] in the IFAR report they specifically mentioned Alfonso Osorio. Remember he was the guy that Glafira claimed took Mr X around to the different studios in New York to purchase these items. artworks off the books, right? Basically, the report rejected the notion that Alfonso had been involved in the sale of any of Pollock's works, saying specifically that Alfonso absolutely did not do any such illegal thing. Ever. That's what the report is claiming. How do they know that for sure? Because these are like big art researchers, right?

[00:40:35] They know everything about these artists. They know like how they conducted their business. They know who was involved. They just know all these things and he's just not on Pollock's radar. And so Anne needed more information because if the Alfonso connection wasn't real, Then the story starts to feel shaky, right?

[00:40:52] So this is when Glifira then confesses that she had to change some of the details in the story at the family's request. So this is [00:41:00] the first evolution of our story. The real story was that Mr. X was a closeted gay man who lived in Switzerland with his wife and kids, but every year he'd leave his wife and come to New York to be with his lover who was very well connected as an art dealer in the city and his lover was the one who actually helped Mr. X get all these special deals on these artworks. 

[00:41:23] And Anne was like It's not David Herbert, is it? And Glafira's like, I'll never tell. Who's David Herbert? So he is an actual real guy, right? So, uh, David Herbert was a well known art dealer and a gay man in New York City at the time. So Anne just fills in the blanks for herself thinking, Oh, that's why Mr. X's family only started selling the pieces bit by bit in the early 90s because they needed to wait for David Herbert to die because otherwise he would see these paints come on the market and then he would out Mr. X. 

[00:41:56] Adam Cox: Right, so she's just kind of, yeah, used her own logic and [00:42:00] Glifira's like, sure.

[00:42:01] Kyle Risi: Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure, that'll 

[00:42:03] Adam Cox: go, 

[00:42:03] Kyle Risi: that works. 

[00:42:04] yeah. So Glifira's really smart. She was very careful to only just give enough information and then Anne would then just fill So this means that Glifira Now has plausible deniability, right? She could say, I never once said it was David Herbert.

[00:42:18] She just assumed, of course, and was like, Oh my God, this makes so much sense. So much sense. David Herbert. She never mentioned the word David Herbert in her life. Wow. Fucked up. So a few years go by. 

[00:42:31] It's now 2007. Another art dealer named Julian Weissman. He reaches out to a guy named Jack Flam. I love that name.

[00:42:40] Jack Flam. Jack Flam. Now Jack. He is an expert in the world of another abstract artist called Robert Motherwell. Now Julian tells Jack that he has recently purchased a previously unknown artwork by Motherwell and he wants Jack to authenticate it, being obviously the [00:43:00] leading expert on Motherwells. So Jack inspects the work and he confirms in writing that he thinks it's authentic.

[00:43:06] And Julian is thrilled. It's exactly what he wants to hear. And then Jack says, Oh, by the way, where did you get it? And Julian responds, Oh, some woman who was selling some artworks by a dead guy. I think, her name is Glifira Rosales. So what we have here is Glifira Rosales, who is selling artworks to another gallery.

[00:43:25] And Anne knows nothing about it. Right. So, the plots are starting to thicken. So a few months later, Anne calls Jack Flam. And she tells him that she has come across a never before seen Motherwell, and wants him to evaluate it. And Jack is like, Another one? And, I mean it's rare, but it's exciting, Jack thinks.

[00:43:47] So Jack heads over to Nodler, he inspects the works, and he tells Anne that he thinks it doesn't look right. So Anne immediately is on the defensive and she pushes back saying like, Motherwell's widow literally came in here [00:44:00] and she has already authenticated this. and so has a bunch of other art historians too.

[00:44:06] Like, they've all come in, they've said it's real. Are you sure? Will you please check again? So Jack is like, let me take the artworks away with me. I'll take another look. And by the way, where'd you get it? And she goes, a woman named Glifira. Of course, Jack is surprised. He says, like, do you have any other artworks from Glifira that she sold you? And Anna's like, yeah, I've got the whole entire gallery. She's got a few here and she's got a few at home. So Jack examines them all. 

[00:44:36] Adam Cox: And this one's fake. This one's fake. This one's this one. This 

[00:44:40] Kyle Risi: one's fake.

[00:44:41] Adam Cox: This one's fake. 

[00:44:42] Kyle Risi: Basically, he examines them all. And when he's done, he tells Anne that he doesn't think any of them are real. And Jack he's expecting her to be like, Wow, you helped me dodge a bullet. This woman is crazy. But instead, she's furious, Adam. She's like, how dare you? Who the hell do you think you are? [00:45:00] Like other experts agree that all of these artworks are authentic. How dare you? And she's like, Oh, by the way, David Herbert himself helped my client's father buy this painting. And they were very close friends. 

[00:45:13] And Jack is like, No he wasn't. Like, I'm the leading expert on all things Motherwell, and I guarantee you that David Herbert and Motherwell absolutely were not friends. So, he suggests that Anne get a forensic test done on the paintings, which is what she should have done in the first place, considering the lack of provenance on the painting, right? But she just refused to. She's got this kind of weird thing in her head that she doesn't trust forensics, but I don't buy that, it's a tool for you as an art dealer to be able to authenticate these works. Reports are telling you something that you don't like. That's the only reason why. 

[00:45:49] Adam Cox: It's because she suspected herself.

[00:45:51] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Surely 100%. So eventually Anne reluctantly agrees, right? So she sends the works off to Ifar. When the report comes back, [00:46:00] it basically says they can't authenticate the artworks because like paints were used that weren't even invented until after mother will had died. So rather than destroying. The works and seizing any further dealings with Clefira, she conceals the report and she refuses to show it to Jack Flamm. 

[00:46:19] Adam Cox: Right, okay. 

[00:46:20] Kyle Risi: Now, in the meantime, Jack Flamm hires a private investigator to look into Clefira Rosales, who quickly finds out that Clefira is living with her boyfriend, a man called Jose, who was previously convicted of art fraud. The plot thickens, Adam.

[00:46:37] So when Jack takes this information to Anne, she just brushes it off! Adam, she knows! She 

[00:46:43] Adam Cox: knows it's all dodgy! Because she wants that paycheck. She wants her commission. And if, Clefira clearly is, her only source, or her main source. If she loses her, then 

[00:46:52] Kyle Risi: What's she gonna do? Like, it's only a matter of time before she falls from grace again, right? 

[00:46:56] Adam Cox: Yeah, I'd kinda be like, you know what? I'd cut my losses and run. You know, have [00:47:00] a good run with 

[00:47:00] Kyle Risi: this. 

[00:47:01] I think she wants to stay at the top of the game, man. but , yeah, you're right. Sell one or two, become notorious, then retire. Yeah. But no, she doesn't. So Jack is like, listen, I tried helping you with authenticating the Motherwells, I booked you a session with IFAR, you won't show me the report. I dug up some dirt on your little friend Glifira, and you still won't listen to me.

[00:47:19] I'm sorry, Anne. I'm going to the FBI. And that's exactly what he does. Right. So, yeah. It's shortly after this that Anne is asked to leave Knoedler because Michael Hammer finds out about the FBI investigating them and he doesn't want them coming anywhere near the gallery. So he tells Anne that he's putting her on a leave of absence and she is basically escorted out of the gallery.

[00:47:43] And to try and cover up obviously the fact that she, you know, is essentially being sacked, Michael Hammer tells everyone that her lung cancer has come back and that she was just taking some time off to heal, which is a bit, eh, a bit tasteless, especially when she's previously suffered from lung cancer, right?

[00:47:59] Right. [00:48:00] But of course, rumours start swirling around that something dodgy is going on, and so to try and save her own reputation, Anne decides to press send all. sends an email to literally everyone that she's connected to, making it very clear that she was the victim in all of this, and that she announces that she was the one who chose to kind of part ways with Node to Gallery, despite obviously having done nothing at all. She says though, stay tuned, because she's got some exciting news coming in the future. And she wasn't lying, because in 2011, a sale of another Jackson Pollock she'd previously sold for Glafira, came back to bite her in a massive way. When this work came into the gallery, Anne paid 1. 9 million dollars for it, which she sold for 17 million dollars to an investment banker called Pierre Lagrange. 

[00:48:51] So in 2011, Pierre is going through a very public, very dirty divorce when it comes out that he is gay and that he had been having an affair [00:49:00] with a Mayfair based fashion designer. So Lagrange was in the process of selling the Jackson Pollock through Sotheby's and Christie's as part of this project. process of splitting his assets with his ex wife, right. 

[00:49:12] However, Both auction houses refused to touch the artwork because of the circulating rumors that have now cast doubt on the authenticity of the Pollock. This is why you don't say something might be fake, because you could get sued, especially by this big rich banker who's now looking for blood because he can't sell the damn Pollock. It's got this mark against it, right? Yeah, yeah. 

[00:49:34] So Lagrange sends the works off to forensics and surprise, surprise, paints used in the artwork hadn't been invented until 15 years after Pollock had kind of died. Naturally, Lagrange is of course furious, so he marches straight into Knoedler, demanding his money back within 48 hours. But the new director of the gallery is like, sorry, it's been more than four years since you purchased the works, and the statute of limitations has now passed on this, which means that we are under [00:50:00] no obligation to give you a refund at all. 

[00:50:03] Adam Cox: But then it's fraud. It 

[00:50:05] Kyle Risi: is, yeah. So he demands to speak with Anne directly. Of course, Anne no longer works there because she's been sacked. So They give him her details and Lagrange then just comes in hot. He's threatening to destroy her life and everyone that's involved with Nodler if she doesn't fix this immediately. Basically, he just wants his money back.

[00:50:23] Anne tries to calm him down. She doesn't have the money. She can't gain access to that kind of money. But she's like, let's be sensible about this. You want to sell the painting and get your money back. What if I can find you another buyer? And he just looks at him and he's like, hang on. You want to knowingly sell a fake Pollock to some other sucker and Anne responds well, we all know that forensics can't be trusted and I think the painting is still real so I think I can find you a buyer and Lagrange just looks at her in disgust and says this makes you look very bad and I'm going to see you in court.

[00:50:59] Adam Cox: That's [00:51:00] shady. Yeah, she should not have done 

[00:51:02] Kyle Risi: that. So a few days later, a lawsuit against Knoedler and Friedman is filed and the very next day after this, Knoedler shuts its doors. And now we're back to the very beginning of this story when the art world is shocked and people are intrigued about what the hell has happened.

[00:51:21] What's wild is that very few collectors who were sold works by Anne, actually came forward following this, like no one wanted to come forward and admit that they may be potentially sitting on a fake. Isn't that crazy? 

[00:51:34] Adam Cox: Well, I'm guessing these people, they probably have a lot of money anyway, so it's probably not about money. I 

[00:51:40] Kyle Risi: Of course it's about money, they're buying these things as, as, as investments. 

[00:51:43] Adam Cox: But then, if they come forward and they've realised, or show to everyone else, that they were gullible and a bit of a fool and didn't go about it the right way, so maybe they're like, oh, do you know what, I'll swallow a couple of million, it's fine, I don't know.

[00:51:55] Kyle Risi: My thinking was that I think that they chose to stay quiet [00:52:00] so they could just Potentially wait out the storm and when everything settles then try and just see if they can just sell the painting I think they probably a lot of them went off got the paintings authenticated behind the scenes very quietly if the news came back That was fake. They would then just hold on and Wait, and then try to sell it a few years later. That's the only thing I can think of because rich people they care about money no one wants to be defrauded unless they're never gonna sell the painting, but who does that? 

[00:52:26] I don't know, but how are they gonna be able to sell the painting if it's all this a Conspiracy and black marks against a lot of these paintings.

[00:52:33] meanwhile, while all of this is going on the FBI is still looking into kind of GL and her boyfriend Jose and his brother Jesus now, or Yeezus. Jesus. Jesus what's he got to do with this? Jesus. So basically, when the three of them suspect that they're being investigated, jose and his brother, they decide to flee to Spain, leaving obviously Clefera and her daughter alone in New York. Obviously, the reason why they've not arrested anyone yet is because it's difficult [00:53:00] to prove that these artworks are fake. Or even if they could prove that, It would be difficult for them to prove that she was knowingly selling fakes, right? Did she know that they were fake? But when the FBI decided to follow the money, they see that not only did Glafira and Jose keep every single penny of the 33 million that they got from Nodler, remember, not a single penny was ever transferred to this mysterious Mr X's family. It was all just sitting in the bank account. So that's a big red flag, right? But it's not illegal, but they also notice that they never ever paid a single penny. I was just 

[00:53:36] Adam Cox: thinking, how did this work? Because Anna's, like, wiring money to them, but how are they going to, like, declare that? I was just sort of thinking that. 

[00:53:46] Kyle Risi: Lack of declaration. And that's what they get them on. So they Arrest them for tax evasion. Glifira knows that she is done for because her lawyers advise her the best that you can do here is just hope for leniency. So she [00:54:00] cooperates and she tells them everything.

[00:54:01] Apparently, what Glifira and Jose were doing were analyzing the art market to see which artists were selling in high demand. They noticed that, of course, abstract expressionists was currently popular. With that information, then find this Chinese math professor named I'm going to butcher this name, kui An Pen Shen, I believe that's how you pronounce his name. Now, apparently he had mastered the style of abstract expressionists, not just theoretically, but he could actually paint in real time. in their own individual styles. He basically has studied fine art in both Shanghai and New York. And even though he is a math professor, he's got this little side hustle painting portraits on the corner of like kind of Manhattan. 

[00:54:42] So in China, there's this long standing tradition of like copying artworks. Like it's seen as a, like a form of appreciation and a test of an artist's skill to be able to paint in detail. that particular style, right? 

[00:54:55] And especially if it's multiple different artists. Exactly. Quite talented then, this guy. [00:55:00] Extremely talented. And when obviously trained to become an artist in China, the goal is to completely master an artist's style down to the individual brush strokes and the materials that they would have used.

[00:55:09] While in the West, this might obviously seem like a major infringement on an artist's work, in China, It's respected as an art form that honors the original artist. 

[00:55:19] So there's loads of this type of guy in China, but he just happens to be in New York and Glifira finds him. So Glifira sets Qiyan, or Quan, or this guy, up with materials like paints from the 1950s.

[00:55:34] They find vintage canvases and they have him do a few trial pieces. And when they're confident, they let him loose on a few works that resemble Pollock's, Rothko's and And when he is done, Jose then takes the paintings and he makes them look older by staining them with tea bags, tea bags, pouring dust on them, and even blast them with a hairdryer to kind of like make the paint crack like an old painting would do.

[00:55:57] Right. So they're like, They're in [00:56:00] 8th grade art class, Adam! 

[00:56:01] Adam Cox: I was gonna say, this is, this is not that sophisticated when you, when you look at this. It's really not, is it? Ah, wow, and don't get me wrong, there's talent here, but millions pounds worth? Or dollars? Exactly. 

[00:56:12] Kyle Risi: The final step is for them to find a respectable dealer. to obviously sell the works and that's what brings them to Knoedler. They know Knoedler is desperate. Glyphira is very smart. She built up this connection through Jaime. And as we know, the first painting that is introduced to Anne is that Diebenkorn before then obviously going in with the kill with that amazing Rothko and the Jackson Pollock for 17 million bloody dollars. So it's crazy. 

[00:56:37] Of course, the missing piece for the FBI is this Chinese painter, Kuan Shen Pen, or Kuan Pi Shen, I can't pronounce his name, but they track him down, they find that he has this little studio set up in his garage and naturally he denies that Glifira and Jose are selling forgeries, he just thinks that they're selling paintings to people who want something that looks [00:57:00] polychromatic. ish, which as you said earlier, it's very common in China, right? So he doesn't suspect anything weird about it. And at first they believe him when they discovered that Glafira was only paying him round about 2, 000 per painting and then going off and selling like a Pollock for 950, 000.

[00:57:17] Adam Cox: So she's the one that's pocketing the most. 

[00:57:19] Kyle Risi: but the FBI then tell this Chinese painter how much Glafira was actually selling the paintings to Anne for, and apparently he is shocked. But when they question Glafira about this, she produces receipts that prove that he knew how much she and Anne were making because she could prove that he was actually in attendance at one of the exhibitions that they had hosted which had the price tag at the very bottom of the painting. So he knew, and also after he found that out, he then demanded between 5, 000 and 9, 000 per painting.

[00:57:52] Adam Cox: But then, yeah, he obviously went into it and that's how he understood how things were working out. But then he changed his [00:58:00] mind. I would have still asked for more though.

[00:58:02] Kyle Risi: Oh yeah, for sure. I'd ask for like tens of thousands. Twenty, thirty thousand. 

[00:58:05] Adam Cox: A hundred thousand. Yeah. But fair enough, then you would definitely not kill him. 

[00:58:11] Kyle Risi: Well, the thing is though, he knows he's in trouble now. So he disappears to China and he's lost to the FBI. There's no way that China is ever going to extradite him back to the USA.

[00:58:20] Adam Cox: He definitely should have gone for more money. He should have. 

[00:58:23] Kyle Risi: They try to get Jose and his brother sent back from Spain on extradition orders but again Spain says no, basically, so the only person the FBI have. And that then leads them to Ann Freedman who they suspect must have known this entire time But again, she just claims that she is the central victim in all of this and the FBI doesn't really buy it though Because they look at the money and they see that and happily obliged Lafayette's request to issue all payments in installments of under 10, 000 so that she wouldn't have to declare it to the government. Bear that in mind, because Anne purchasing a [00:59:00] painting for 950, 000 means that she would have to have written out 95 separate checks for 10, 000 each and give them to Glifira. And don't tell me for a second that a respected art dealer wouldn't go, that's weird.

[00:59:15] Adam Cox: That's, come on Anna. 

[00:59:16] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:59:17] Adam Cox: You've kind of brought this on yourself.

[00:59:19] Kyle Risi: She has, but she never wavers Adam. So she sticks her story insisting that she has no reason, or had no reason to suspect anything. She acknowledges that looking back, yes. She can see all the red flags. But what about the report she hid?

[00:59:34] exactly. She looks back and she says, I can see all the red flags in hindsight, but she insists that all of her dealings with Clefira was spread over 15 years. So it wasn't obvious when you look at it first glance, but yes, when it's all in the table in front of you. Yes, it's a bit glaring, but it's spread out over 15 years.

[00:59:52] Adam Cox: Yeah, spread out over 15 years. And she's probably gone through three different apartments and various different luxury holidays . 

[00:59:57] Kyle Risi: So here's the thing. Anne has never charged Kyle. [01:00:00] in a criminal lawsuit because they can't prove that she knowingly sold these fakes. But, of course, people who have sold these questionable works, they do bring civil lawsuits, so Glifira is, of course, charged in a criminal trial because she hasn't paid any tax. She's accused of wire fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, and conspiracy to commit a crime. And as a result she faces up to 99 years in prison. 99? 

[01:00:23] Adam Cox: Yeah. Wow. That's pretty serious. 

[01:00:26] Kyle Risi: But her defense is that Jose made her do it all because like he was an abusive husband.

[01:00:30] He manipulated her. He threatened to take a daughter away to live in Spain if she didn't do what she was told. And the judge actually is really sympathetic. So she does this. Escape prison time she has to obviously pay back 81 million dollars in restitution and back taxes 81 million Yeah, this means of course that she loses a house all of her money and she's left broke So she has to move in with a friend and today She just works as a waitress in brooklyn essentially 

[01:00:55] Adam Cox: and still paying back that money though or a part of that money 

[01:00:57] Kyle Risi: I guess so every single paycheck. There's some is being [01:01:00] garnered off the top of it 

[01:01:01] Adam Cox: She not thinks like hide some money that's what she should have done. She should 

[01:01:04] Kyle Risi: have done. So in the Netflix documentary titled Made You Look, they actually interview several people that are involved in the story, including Anne Friedman herself, which is incredible. I just never thought that she would be on this documentary. But Clefera Rosales, she's not in the documentary at all, which makes me curious about what's her side of the story. Because Glifira hasn't done any press since 2013, but apparently she did tell Vanity Fair that she has an incredible story to tell, but she's been told by her lawyers that she just can't tell it yet.

[01:01:39] What does that mean? Exactly. So that was a few years ago. So I'm hoping she's getting ready to talk. And I don't want to get anyone's hopes up just yet, but just yesterday, I found out that she was on Alec Baldwin's podcast series called Art Fraud, which basically goes deep into the story, like as an eight parter.

[01:01:57] Apparently, this is the only [01:02:00] interview that she's done since 2013. I have no idea what the extent of her involvement in this interview is, but I'm excited to find out and I'll definitely be listening. 

[01:02:09] Adam Cox: You should link that in the show notes. 

[01:02:11] Kyle Risi: Yeah, absolutely. So I wonder what she knows, right? But this is what we know up to this point. So Anne ends up in a bunch of civil lawsuits with a lot of clients that she sold paintings to. They tracked down as many of the paintings Glafira sold to Knoedler and Julian Wiseman as they can In total there's 63 of these paintings, only 10 of those come forward to say This bitch sold us a fake painting.

[01:02:34] The other 30 are just sitting on them, waiting. 

[01:02:37] Adam Cox: And that's a civil trial, is that? 

[01:02:38] Kyle Risi: are civil trials, yeah. Only 10, 

[01:02:39] Adam Cox: yeah, that's interesting. 

[01:02:41] Kyle Risi: One of those cases is filed by Domenico and Eleanor DeSalle. They bought the Shady Rothko in 2004 for 8. 5 million. Now the claim is that Anne must have known it was a fake and you get the sense when you're reading through these notes that, they are out for blood.

[01:02:58] So the trial proceeds [01:03:00] and both Anne and Michael, they have to testify along with a bunch of other witnesses. And this is where things get really hilarious. They paint Anne in a very, very bad light making the art world at the same time look like a complete and utter farce.

[01:03:14] It's exactly like the Rudy Kiriwani episode where you've got all these experts that are claiming that they know that this is one of the best wines in the world when all it was was Rudy making wine in his sink with his old mum stirring the pot. It's kind of the same thing here isn't it? It's exactly the same thing here.

[01:03:31] So a bunch of people get called . Some of them say that they only saw the painting for a minute. Others say that they only saw a photograph that was sent to them, right? And a lot of them said it was beautiful. And Anne uses that as proof that the works were authenticated by these experts. Witnesses who spent more time authenticating the works said that despite their initial doubts about the paintings authenticity, they felt pressured to agree with other leading experts who believed that the paintings were genuine. So they see their name on the list and [01:04:00] they go,Terry said it's real. So I'm going to say it's real as well. 

[01:04:03] Adam Cox: Yeah, but, and so they think they can get off of it like that because they say that someone else has said. It's fine. 

[01:04:10] Kyle Risi: That's exactly what's happening here. Others say that Anne would invite them to the gallery, then like she would get them nice and tipsy with some wine and say, Oh, by the way, do you wanna like see my latest Pollock? And they would say, Yeah, wow, it's so beautiful. And then magically, their names would also appear on that list of people who said that they have authenticated the artwork.

[01:04:28] I feel like there needs to be 

[01:04:30] Adam Cox: like, I solemnly swear I signed this. Otherwise, there's a whole bunch of like Teflon shoulder art dealer people. 

[01:04:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it's so corrupt Adam. I love it when a rich white guy gets duped. But at the same time, it's not good for an industry, right? Especially when billions and billions of dollars are changing hands every year at these auction houses. And here's the thing, out of all the experts who said that the painting was genuine because they genuinely thought that it was they have to start kind of [01:05:00] backpedaling saying that they, had a sense that it was fake 

[01:05:03] Adam Cox: that's too, too late to say fake. Yeah, 

[01:05:06] Kyle Risi: that's the thing though, like their reputations are on the line. Many of them start saying I might have said it was real, but I had my doubts and it's just such a farce. Nobody knows anything for sure and this just proves that the art world and kind of the wine world and all these kind of high luxury goods are all just a 

[01:05:24] Adam Cox: farce. It's a pretentious bunch of hoo ha. 

[01:05:29] Buhaki. The only person who really knows that the painting was fake was Richard Diebenkorn's Widow like she saw those paintings. She knew they didn't look right.

[01:05:38] Kyle Risi: She knows they never really existed It. She was with him his entire career, but she couldn't say anything until now. When she finally gets to take the stand, that's when people start realising that the stupid law around defamation of property and not being allowed to outright say that a work isn't genuine out of fear of being sued is just stupid and didn't make a lot of sense.

[01:05:59] But [01:06:00] get this, the law doesn't change, it's still in place today. 

[01:06:03] Adam Cox: What does she say about it now? 

[01:06:05] Kyle Risi: She still says it's not real, like she kept meticulous records, like her saying, like, Oh, it's a lost masterpiece from Diebenkorn. She was like, it's almost an insult to her intelligence. She's like, are you saying that I lapsed in my record keeping? I'm the queen of organization, bitch. 

[01:06:22] Adam Cox: But I will not say anything to save face. 

[01:06:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. And of course, it gets even more hilarious because the lawyers line up all the red flags that Anne should have spotted. And there are more than 60 of them. And then one by one, they highlight them to the witnesses on the stand.

[01:06:38] It's humiliating for Anne because she can't respond or defend herself at this point. So it just makes her look incredibly stupid and incredibly incompetent, like really magnifies all of her mistakes. For instance, they asked one witness. Isn't it odd that all of the paintings offered by one seller had such a lack of provenance across all of the works that they brought [01:07:00] in?

[01:07:00] Like how common is that? And they were like, it's almost unheard of. They would ask them like, why would a seller offer so many significant works at a margin so significantly below market value? And a witness would then say, like rich people are more obsessed with money than poor people are. So they didn't believe that that would ever happen at all. They ask like, how common is it for a seller to bring in so many previously undiscovered artworks? Like in Anne's case, there were more than 40 of them, right? And they say, as a dealer, you are lucky to come across just one in your lifetime, if that, in your entire career.

[01:07:35] So it's crazy, like it was unprecedented that she discovered all of these artworks that had been previously undiscovered. They also asked what do you think about the inconsistencies in the backstory? And how would you have reacted? Like Mr. X and the flip flopping of the story and like her not wanting to give details.

[01:07:52] And they all say like they would have dodged that bullet so hard. Like, yeah, you can't give me any names, but then sorry, I can't help you. 

[01:07:58] Adam Cox: Yeah, yeah. Because 

[01:07:58] Kyle Risi: they need the [01:08:00] provenance. They also ask about their feelings towards forensics. And they all say like, forensics is so important. to our job. Like why a dealer wouldn't trust forensics is beyond any comprehension that they had. It would only happen if forensics was issuing conclusions that the dealer wasn't happy with. So they asked like how ethical is it to also tell a potential client that you had personally purchased a painting from that same seller knowing that was not true. And yeah, basically, and looks just like a complete. Full in all of this and she can't defend herself.

[01:08:34] So apparently when the accountant for Knoedler takes a stand they walk the court through all of the gallery's finances and they discover that the gallery would have closed if it wasn't for the money generated from Clefira's fakes.

[01:08:48] Basically, they were 3 million in debt and essentially, Noda's main business was selling fakes. That was the main thing that they did. 

[01:08:57] Adam Cox: Isn't 

[01:08:57] well, that's what I mean. I feel [01:09:00] like she could have just done a few of these. Get things back online or whatever going. And then kind of, you know, become, go on the straight and narrow.

[01:09:10] Kyle Risi: Yeah, quit while you're ahead. Like when you're at the top of your game, quit, and then you've got your legacy. So one of the main reasons the gallery was struggling so much after 165 years, business was because Michael Hammer was using the gallery's his own personal piggy bank and he bought himself like a 500, 000 Rolls Royce, 500, 000 Mercedes. He used the gallery's money to fund his vacations. So it's implied that Michael was the driving force behind the scam. 

[01:09:35] So Michael and Anne, they are both due to take the stand later that day. And it starts becoming apparent to the defense team that if Anne and Michael take the stand, It's not going to look good for them.

[01:09:47] So while everyone is off at recess, their lawyers just scramble to settle the case. And then when everyone comes back from lunch, all really excited, it's announced that all parties have decided to kind of settle. And the case is just over like [01:10:00] that. And everyone is just massively disappointed because more than anything, people wanted to see Anne. take the stand and make a complete fool of herself, especially asking all these questions about these red flags. They quite literally reach a climax and then the trial stopped dead. How often have we been there? 

[01:10:15] Adam Cox: I liked how the lawyers were like, do you know what? I have got, I cannot save you whatsoever. I've gotten murderers off. I can't do this for you. 

[01:10:25] Kyle Risi: Sorry, Anne. Sorry, Michael. So Domenico and Eleanor Tassol, they're the guys who bought Rothko. make it very clear through their lawyers that they were not the ones to offer the settlement. So everyone knows it's Michael and Anne who decided to settle, which to do so at the point where you're about to take the stand.

[01:10:45] obviously makes you look very guilty. But of course, to save face, and she keeps going around town, telling everyone how disappointed she was that she never got to testify and tell her side of the story. Like, seriously, just stop with the damn excuses. [01:11:00] But by the end of 2016, all 10 of the court, cases are settled out of court. So we don't know the details. What? 

[01:11:06] Adam Cox: So did they manage to go free Michael and Ann then?yeah. All settled. I guess Michael's got some deep pockets, so he's probably paid some of them back. 

[01:11:14] Kyle Risi: And I mean, she got a lot of money as well. 

[01:11:17] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[01:11:17] Kyle Risi: From all her commissions that she made, right?

[01:11:20] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[01:11:21] Kyle Risi: Apart from Glifira, everyone Their lives just go back to normal. Michael Hammer still owns Hammer Galleries, trading fine art. Who would 

[01:11:27] Adam Cox: trust him? Just so I 

[01:11:28] Kyle Risi: know, right? you wouldn't invite him over for dinner. No. In just case he's a bit of a cannibal as well. Keep your toes tucked 

[01:11:34] Adam Cox: in.

[01:11:34] But Anna, she can't be working in the art world anymore. Ha! 

[01:11:39] Kyle Risi: Anna Friedman started her own gallery on the Upper East Side called Friedman Art. People still buy art from her, which is just baffling to me. 

[01:11:47] Adam Cox: I don't even know what to say to that.

[01:11:50] Kyle Risi: This entire case should have shown how shady she is as a dealer, and how nobody should ever trust her competence. Just to give you a sense of what an idiot [01:12:00] she is, one of the artworks that Clefira brought in was this. another Jackson Pollock. And Anne decides to purchase this for herself, right? The signature on the painting is misspelled.

[01:12:11] It literally is missing the C in Pollock. 

[01:12:15] Adam Cox: But isn't it like when you have like a coin that's got like a fault or whatever, like a misspelling and it's oh, this 50p is worth way more.

[01:12:22] Kyle Risi: She literally says, Oh, I never noticed. Like, why would you trust this woman as an authority? Either she's a blatant criminal or she's blatantly incompetent. Either way, Nobody should be visiting her gallery, but we will be visiting her gallery when we go to New York.

[01:12:39] Is this one real? No, this one? This one? Hey, Anne, what about this one? Oh my god, can you imagine how annoying we would be? Yeah, okay. Is there anything in here that is real? Is this champagne real? 

[01:12:50] Adam Cox: Yeah. It's Carver, you fraud!

[01:12:57] Kyle Risi: So the thing is, though, this story, [01:13:00] Adam, just highlights how corrupt, but also again, just as we've learned from the Rudy Kiriwani story, how subjective a lot of these experts are when they are assessing these works, right? And given the authentication, their opinion, and also how easily these people can be fooled.

[01:13:15] We've literally invented an entire field of forensics, for fine artwork, yet these dealers, like Anne, choose to view them. as evidence that they can either accept or just deny if it doesn't fit with what they want it to say, essentially. So that is the Achilles heel of the artwork.

[01:13:33] All you need is just one or two people to authenticate a piece of artwork with a bit of wine in them. Or from a photograph, a two megapixel photograph and that work then gets accepted and then indoctrined into the official kind of art world, right? So God knows how many works have slipped through and are hanging in galleries all over the world.

[01:13:55] Like directors of museums have said the process of entering work into the [01:14:00] market is so messed up that there is just no telling how many works that are hanging in museums are actually fake. Mm. It's fucked up. yeah. 

[01:14:08] So if you want to know more about this madness, then there's a great documentary on Netflix called Made You Look, which is like a kind of those, what do you call them?

[01:14:17] Like when they're talking to the camera. A talking head. A talking head. Is it? A talking head? That's aptly named, isn't it, Adam? I know, it's it's a head and it's talking. Okay, 

[01:14:26] So basically, it's a Talking Head documentary where they interview everyone involved in the scandal, including, of course, Anne herself.

[01:14:31] And it's brilliant because whenever you see Anne try to explain something away, the very next person on camera is literally just doing the biggest eye roll. Cause she's just so full of shit and it's amazing and she keeps referring to her discovery and saying that like people were just bitter and jealous that they didn't discover it. for themselves. She even says that Glifira's story never changed. It just evolved. Words I just love. That 

[01:14:55] Adam Cox: means it's changed. 

[01:14:57] Kyle Risi: Yes. So yeah, absolutely have to watch that [01:15:00] one. However, Glifira isn't in the documentary and I suspect it's because she's under some kind of NDA. But like I said, she recently has been on Alec Baldwin's podcast called Art Fraud, which is an eight part series, which I haven't listened to yet, but I'm dying. for the additional tea and hopefully she spills it. That's all I can say she told Valentine Verre. She's got an incredible story, so it's got to be good, right? 

[01:15:24] And Adam, that is the compendium of the Knoedler Art Gallery forgery scam, which I think says so much about how ridiculous the high end art world is. Really is. 

[01:15:34] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's I think, do you know what, I had a vague recollection of maybe that story now that we've gone through it and maybe I read an article, but yeah, wow, what a fraud Anna was, or deluded. I think she could be a deluded criminal. 

[01:15:48] Kyle Risi: Sure that there is a delusion in her. Or she's just trying to backpedal so hard, I guess she still has a gallery that she is running, right, so she has to defend that. Is it a 

[01:15:57] Adam Cox: gallery, or is it just like a broom [01:16:00] cupboard?

[01:16:00] Kyle Risi: It's a gallery on Upper East Side. I saw the outside of it in the documentary. It even says Anne Friedman. Should be Anna Fordman. 

[01:16:09] Adam Cox: That's clever. That is. You're welcome. 

[01:16:11] Kyle Risi: So yeah, I think she totally knew. I'm sorry, but that Pollock without the C is just ridiculous. 100 percent she knew this whole time. But yeah, even if she was just negligent, why is she still allowed? To be a dealer, why are people still buying from her? It's just wild. Don't do it. 

[01:16:28] Any last words for today? Anne. Is that it? And that wraps up another journey into the fascinating and the intriguing on the compendium. If today's episode tickled your curiosity, then don't forget to hit that follow button if you haven't already.

[01:16:41] in your favorite podcasting app. It really makes a world of difference when you do. And for those diehard listeners, next week's episode is waiting for you right on our Patreon, completely free of charge. Hungry for more? Then join the Certified Freaks tier and unlock our entire archive of unreleased [01:17:00] episodes and get a sneak peek of what's coming next.

[01:17:02] We'd love to have you in our growing community. New episodes drop every Tuesday. And until then, remember the real art isn't in the painting. It's in pulling off the scam.

[01:17:11] See you next week. 

[01:17:12] Adam Cox: See 

[01:17:12] Kyle Risi: ya.