Who Shot Jill Dando: The Mystery Behind Her Infamous Murder

In this episode of the Compendium, we explore the shocking murder of Jill Dando, a beloved BBC presenter whose unsolved case continues to baffle the nation. From the controversial trial of Barry George to theories of political assassinations and mysterious stalkers, we uncover the many layers of this 1999 crime. Who killed Jill Dando? Was it a lone killer, or was she caught in something bigger? Get ready for a deep dive into one of the UK’s most infamous unsolved murder cases and the relentless search for answers.

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:

• BBC News: The Life and Death of Jill Dando
• The Guardian: The Trial of Barry George
• Netflix: Who Shot Jill Dando? Documentary
• Crimewatch: Jill Dando Special Edition
• The Independent: Revisiting the Jill Dando Case

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Credits:

• Hosts: Kyle Risi & Adam Cox
• Intro and Outro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin
• All the Latest Things Intro: Clowns by Giulio Fazio

Chapters

• 0:00 Sneak peak
• 1:05 Welcome to The Compendium
• 6:05 All the latest things
• 14:14 Topic of the week
• 1:06:23 Outro

Transcript

[00:00:00] Adam Cox: and so the public was urged to help identify this man. From this e fit. One man came forward called James Shackledon, who admitted the e fit looked like him. 

[00:00:10] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that looks like me. I, should I go up there? 

[00:00:13] Adam Cox: Maybe if, especially if you were in the area at the time, and maybe you just want to rule yourself out, you go Hi, I look like him?

[00:00:20] I don't think it was me. . Um, So he was arrested and his house was searched, raising hopes that this might be the breakthrough in the case. 

[00:00:28] Kyle Risi: Oh god, can you imagine like you come forward to do a good deed just to rule yourself out, they go and search your house and they find something worse.

[00:00:34] Adam Cox: Well. 

[00:00:36] Kyle Risi: Oh no! 

[00:00:37] Adam Cox: What they found in his house was a coffin. 

[00:00:40] [00:01:00]

[00:01:08] Adam Cox: Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. We're a weekly variety podcast where each week we dive into stories pulled from the darker corners of true crime, the annals of your old unread history books, and the who's who of extraordinary people. We give you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering.

[00:01:28] I'm your ringmaster for this episode, Adam Cox. 

[00:01:30] Kyle Risi: And I'm your Willy Warmer inspector for this week. That's, I don't 

[00:01:36] Adam Cox: feel like that's an official It 

[00:01:38] Kyle Risi: is! It is, I checked. There is someone who is assigned roles in the Freak Show to go around inspecting everyone's Willy Warmers because the winter's coming, Adam.

[00:01:48] Gotta make sure no one gets any frostbite on their tips. 

[00:01:51] Adam Cox: Right. There's some, I don't want to go to this circus. 

[00:01:54] Kyle Risi: Don't you? you do, trust me. You do. I've inspected all the willy warmers, you know all the [00:02:00] peens are in check, so you definitely want to go. Okay. No frostbitten peens here. 

[00:02:05] Adam Cox: that's good to know.

[00:02:06] Kyle Risi: God, this podcast is taking a downturn so fast. It really 

[00:02:08] Adam Cox: has, hasn't it? Welcome, Adam. Yes. So in today's compendium, we are diving into one of the biggest criminal investigations in the 20th century, the mysterious murder behind a beloved 90s TV presenter. 

[00:02:22] Kyle Risi: What? 

[00:02:22] Adam Cox: Any clues? 

[00:02:23] Kyle Risi: What? In the UK? 

[00:02:24] Adam Cox: In the UK. is this Jill Dando?

[00:02:27] This is Jill Dando. Wow, 

[00:02:30] Kyle Risi: what a story! 

[00:02:31] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's one that, it's been in the news I think consistently pretty much every year 

[00:02:37] in today's episode, we are revisiting the shocking murder of Jill Dando, a beloved BBC presenter who was second to Princess Diana at the time in terms of her popularity within the UK.

[00:02:47] On April the 26th, 1999, Jill had got out of her car to stop by her home in London. With her keys out ready, she walked just a matter of feet from her car to her front door. When somebody cut short her [00:03:00] life, they pulled out a gun and shot her in the back of the head on her doorstep in broad daylight.

[00:03:06] Kyle Risi: Really? It was just point blank, shot her in the head? Yeah. Do you know what? What year was this? Was this 1999? Yeah. So I came to this country in 1999 and of course it was a UK BBC presenter, obviously really beloved. So this was the first time I was hearing of this when she was just murdered. Hmm. So it was striking because she was so popular, but also she had this look of princess Diana about her.

[00:03:35] I know you mentioned princess Diana, but she looked like princess Diana, the same haircut, same kind of classic, slightly feminine, androgynous look really beautiful, but it really hit people hard. but I didn't really know too much of the story because just arrived. in the UK. And so I didn't really have an affinity towards it, but it's always been one of those stories I've been really quite interested about, but didn't know anything [00:04:00] about it.

[00:04:00] Adam Cox: Yeah. she was like one of the most popular TV presenters. She was on the news all the time. She had her own TV shows. And wasn't she like crime watch? She did crime watch crime watch, which we'll come on to. How that possibly plays a part into her death. 

[00:04:15] Kyle Risi: Really? Wow. 

[00:04:16] Adam Cox: she had her own holiday show where she traveled the world.

[00:04:18] She was, you know, a really good journalist and everyone loved her. 

[00:04:21] Kyle Risi: So in the UK, who is she equivalent to today? 

[00:04:24] Adam Cox: I'm trying to think. Someone like Susanna Reid, but even Susanna Reid is probably not that big. I'm trying to think of a news presenter. 

[00:04:33] Kyle Risi: Is that Susanna Reid, the one that was with Piers Morgan on the Good Morning Britain show?

[00:04:37] Adam Cox: kind of like her, but still, she was more famous than that. Someone more Claudia Winkleman in terms of that kind of famousness , but I just feel there isn't anyone like Jill Dando now. 

[00:04:47] Kyle Risi: Yeah, do you know what, I think, If I'm honest, from what I get is that, , Jill Downer was a national treasure. Absolutely. So if anything I would say Holly Willoughby. 

[00:04:58] Adam Cox: Holly Willoughby probably a little bit. 

[00:04:59] Kyle Risi: [00:05:00] Willoughby doesn't do the news. She's more like a bit more charismatic, but still a national treasure.

[00:05:04] Yeah, everyone would be love. Wow. This is interesting 

[00:05:07] Adam Cox: Yeah, so this investigation into a murder Was pretty much a national obsession like the police the media and all the public was like scrambling for answers It wasn't just a crime It was a moment that shocked the country a woman who was loved by the nation was dead causing the biggest criminal investigation since the Yorkshire River Today we will remember who Jill Dando was, why she was so loved, and who she might have upset.

[00:05:33] Was it a jilted lover? Obsessed stalker, or even an organized hit by a Serbian assassin, or maybe someone hiding in plain sight. 

[00:05:41] Kyle Risi: Are we going to be diving into conspiracy theories here? 

[00:05:44] Adam Cox: Not conspiracy theories. 

[00:05:45] These are all, avenues the police looked into .

[00:05:48] Kyle Risi: Hang on. Actually, the most important question. Did they ever find out who murdered her? 

[00:05:52] Adam Cox: Someone got arrested. 

[00:05:54] Kyle Risi: Oh, interesting. Adam, get on with the show. 

[00:05:57] Adam Cox: Okay, so this investigation would go on to raise [00:06:00] so many questions, but the main one being, of course, who shot Jill Dando.

[00:06:05] but before we get into that, it's time for 

[00:06:07] Kyle Risi: All the Ladies Things. 

[00:06:09] So this is a segment of our show where we catch up on all the things we've discovered over the last seven days. From weird news to mind boggling facts. This week, it's my turn to go first.

[00:06:22] So Adam, at the time of this recording, it is early September, right? By the time this goes out, be like mid October? Ish. Summer is fading. we're left with now are those memories of the summer spent chilling out by the pool, the unmistakable smell that instantly takes you back to your childhood memories of days spent swimming and relaxing and chilling out and just having the best summer ever.

[00:06:52] There's very few smells that kind of encapsulate. the smell of a summer, but one of them is Suncream. Suncream's [00:07:00] one of them, but also the smell of chlorine. 

[00:07:02] Adam Cox: Oh, okay. You don't think so? I wouldn't have gone with chlorine, but where are you going with this? 

[00:07:07] Kyle Risi: Well, the thing is, I grew up in South Africa, so when I wasn't running wild and free on the African plains, I spent time chilling out in my family swimming pool.

[00:07:15] And the smell of chlorine has always been something that's been really unmistakable. A very nostalgic smell that I associate with the summer. 

[00:07:23] Well, did you know that the smell of the pool that is so nostalgic to us today, that we have always thought was the smell of chlorine, isn't in fact from chlorine. It's actually pee. 

[00:07:38] Adam Cox: Do you know what, I think, I feel like I might have known this. Did you? I know that it's masks, um, 

[00:07:44] the strength of the smell links to the strength of the pee. 

[00:07:48] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so it's the smell that we associate with chlorine is a result of the contaminants that are in the water. That are reacting with it, and it's typically pee, sweat, or other kind of human [00:08:00] contaminants, biological things. Isn't that disgusting?

[00:08:03] It is, yeah. So this YouTuber heard that the smell of chlorine was actually the result of kind of chlorine interacting with urine, sweat, and like I said, other contaminants. So he thought that he would go off and do a little bit of a test to prove that this wasn't actually true. And what he did is he filled up two buckets of water, 

[00:08:23] bucket A and bucket B, 

[00:08:24] And the only difference between the two buckets was that bucket B contained a little shot of urine. Okay. So he popped the pee in there. He left it for 24 hours and then 24 hours later, he came back to do a smell check. He smelled bucket A, which almost had no smell. Really? Yeah, no smell at all. But bucket B had that really strong unmistakable smell of chlorine that we associate with public swimming pools and chilling out at the pool.

[00:08:56] Adam Cox: Because there's some pools you go into and you have this faint smell, it's barely [00:09:00] there but you can notice it, and then there's other pools you go in and it's really strong. 

[00:09:05] Kyle Risi: So basically what's happening there is that if you smell a faint smell of the chlorine, There's very few contaminants that haven't been resolved by the chlorine.

[00:09:16] But when it's a real strong smell, it means you need more chlorine. Oh god. So that you put more chlorine in, that smell will then dissipate and become more neutral. 

[00:09:24] Adam Cox: And it can be spit, and it can be sweat. 

[00:09:27] Kyle Risi: It can be sweat, it can be pee, poo, it could be poo, I'm assuming it's going to be mostly pee, right?

[00:09:33] Yeah. Because you've got to think, per human being, how much are you spitting in the pool versus how much are you likely weeing in the pool? 

[00:09:40] Adam Cox: yeah, you do get, some in your mouth, pool water, and you spit it out, but Prank. Oh, that is gross thinking about it. 

[00:09:46] Kyle Risi: And the thing is, I was almost destroyed that nostalgic memory of chilling out by the swimming pool because it's one of the best memories that I have, right?

[00:09:54] Just soaked in pee. I'm just soaked in pee. I'm bathing in pee. And I would also [00:10:00] like the smell of it on my skin. So I'd get out the pool, because it was so hot in South Africa, you'd instantly get out, you don't grab a towel, you just instantly get out and then you just lay on the hot kind of pavement right by the swimming pool and you just bake.

[00:10:12] And then. the water dries on your skin and then you can smell your sweat coming in. It's a bit salty, you can sometimes see it crust up a little bit if you're really boiling hot, but you would also be able to smell and taste the chlorine. It's piss, man. I'm licking piss. 

[00:10:28] Adam Cox: Yeah, because as a kid you're just taught that's like the clean smell, right?

[00:10:32] it is, but it's because it's reacting to something. But here's 

[00:10:35] Kyle Risi: the thing, there's nothing I love more. In this world than a nice, clean, bleached shower. I love getting a little spray bottle, spraying bleach all around, and then I will smell that smell of chlorine swimming pools. But that's it reacting with the fact that I've just pissed in the shower.

[00:10:52] Gross. Sometimes I might shit in the shower. I just waffle that down, call it a shower waffle. Please don't do [00:11:00] that. I , make sure it doesn't get blocked. I don't actually shit in the shower. That's from obviously from a previous episode that we did. Yeah. Okay. But yeah, that's all my latest things for this week.

[00:11:09] What have you got for us? 

[00:11:10] Adam Cox: Okay, so my thing this week is I have learnt about the president's biscuit. 

[00:11:16] Kyle Risi: It better not be limp biscuits. 

[00:11:18] Adam Cox: Have you ever heard about his biscuit? 

[00:11:20] Kyle Risi: I don't know, I haven't, no. 

[00:11:21] Adam Cox: He carries it around with him all the time. Which president? Just any president. They always have a biscuit on them.

[00:11:27] Kyle Risi: Say more words. 

[00:11:27] Adam Cox: So it's actually like a plastic card and it's nicknamed the biscuit because on that card it carries all the nuclear codes. 

[00:11:35] Kyle Risi: Okay, 

[00:11:35] Adam Cox: interesting. And so I think he has to like break this wrapper or something in order to look at the codes and on that there's also these other codes on there.

[00:11:44] So he has to memorize where he needs to look on this credit card shaped Piece of plastic to work out which codes he needs to basically read out. Does he get It changes every day. So he has a new biscuit every day. 

[00:11:55] Kyle Risi: shit. So someone 

[00:11:57] Adam Cox: hands him a new biscuit? He gets a new biscuit every day.

[00:11:59] And I think [00:12:00] sometimes the vice president looks after it. But the reason I know about the biscuit, was I actually found out what someone else's idea was instead of the biscuit. And it was a professor from Harvard Law School. So you'd think someone quite smart.

[00:12:12] He suggested that You should put the nuclear codes in a little capsule, and then in someone's body. And so the only way Whose body? Some volunteer. 

[00:12:22] Kyle Risi: Who just follows the president around all day. 

[00:12:24] Adam Cox: Yeah, and the only way to get the codes Just sacrifice him. 

[00:12:27] Kyle Risi: Yeah, essentially. 

[00:12:28] Adam Cox: I know! He would have to carry a heavy butcher knife with him at all times.

[00:12:32] Shit! So if the president needed to get the codes, he would like stab this person, poor Steve, Steve's volunteered and then pull the codes out. 

[00:12:41] Kyle Risi: I just love the juxtaposition of a really lovable term for something that could absolutely destroy the entire planet to their like, Oh, to get these things, these codes that can destroy the world, you've got to stab someone.

[00:12:54] Rather than just breaking a biscuit gently. 

[00:12:56] Adam Cox: And the thing is, right, I haven't stabbed anyone, but I can't imagine that's [00:13:00] easy to, I don't know, get out of a body someone's fired nuclear missile at you and you've got to respond to that.

[00:13:06] You haven't got like hours or like minutes. Yeah. You've got to respond. You can't sit there and 

[00:13:09] Kyle Risi: contemplate it. percent certain that you know exactly where you're going to cut, where you're going to go. And also, have to come to terms with the fact that you've got to cut someone open.

[00:13:18] Adam Cox: Yeah, and then what happens if, there's a false alarm, and then you've cut Steve up, and you're like, Oh, sorry, Steve, and he's, like, bleeding out, , 

[00:13:23] Kyle Risi: what, what if this was under the Clinton administration, and, this whole time, the biscuit holder that was inside her belly, or the code holder, was Monica Lewinsky?

[00:13:32] So he's having it off with Monica Lewinsky, and then, all of a sudden, he has to slice her open. I know. 

[00:13:38] Adam Cox: And the other thing I thought of, what happens if Steve wants to go on holiday, or Monica Lewinsky? Are they allowed to go on holiday? 

[00:13:43] Kyle Risi: Unless they get, a new person to eat a new capsule every day. I don't know.

[00:13:47] Jesus. Because that capsule's gonna come out, right? What if he had a bad curry the night before? 

[00:13:51] Adam Cox: Oh, no, I think it's, somehow it's planted in, oh, I see. 

[00:13:54] Kyle Risi: Ooh. 

[00:13:55] Adam Cox: and then I thought of Wombs if Steve's out at lunch. And, a missile's coming, and they're like, where's Steve? And he's he's gone to [00:14:00] get a burrito.

[00:14:00] I don't know when he's gonna be back. Oh, 

[00:14:02] Kyle Risi: God. That's the stupidest thing Stupidest thing I've ever heard. 

[00:14:05] Adam Cox: yeah, because when the professor said about it to one of his friends at the Pentagon, they were like, no, that's a terrible idea. We're not doing that. Yeah, you 

[00:14:12] Kyle Risi: think? 

[00:14:13] Adam Cox: So yeah, that's my latest thing for this week.

[00:14:15] Very good. Should we get on with the show? Let's go.

[00:14:19]

[00:14:21] Adam Cox: So Kyle, on the morning of April 26th, 1999, the quiet streets of Fulham were shattered by a horrific discovery. Jill Dando, the beloved BBC television presenter, was found collapsed on her doorstep. Passerbys and neighbours quickly realised something was terribly wrong when they could see Jill was covered in blood and she wasn't breathing.

[00:14:40] Desperate calls to emergency services followed, but despite their best efforts, Jill was pronounced dead at 1. 03pm after being rushed to the hospital.

[00:14:49] The news of her death sent shockwaves through the newsroom, where Jill had been a familiar and cherished face. She was known as this woman next door, very down to earth and personable. For detectives on the [00:15:00] scene, the gravity of the situation was immediately clear. This wasn't just a crime, it was a cold blooded murder of a national icon, right in broad daylight.

[00:15:08] Witnesses described a man fleeing the scene, but details were scarce. As the investigation began, the magnitude of Jill Dando's murder started to unfold, the nation and leave everyone searching for answers. And the reason this murder was such a shock was because Jill Dando was only 37.

[00:15:26] From the early 90s, her profile in the UK became pretty big. She hosted the news, various TV shows, one being Songs of Praise, a Christian weekly show with hymns sung by choirs from around the UK. This woman, who was much loved by the British public, and to some, only second to Princess Diana when it came to national treasures, people loved Jill because she seemed very normal, she resonated with a lot of audiences, so it's hard to understand how someone who was this really good human being ended up being murdered in such an unusual and violent way.

[00:15:58] Kyle Risi: God. [00:16:00] Awful. she was pretty much the same age as Princess Diana as well then, right? 

[00:16:03] Adam Cox: I think she was maybe one year older, if that, yeah. 

[00:16:06] Kyle Risi: God. Do you remember when the news broke, where you were and how you felt and because you must have been quite young anyway, so what were like people around you?

[00:16:15] And their impressions of what had happened. 

[00:16:18] Adam Cox: I remember it being all over the news. And I remember I'd always watched her growing up on just various shows and things like that.

[00:16:23] So I knew who she was, but I think I was probably just a bit too young to really understand. The only reason I think I remember Princess Diana's death is because I turned on the TV one morning expecting to watch cartoons, and there wasn't any. 

[00:16:36] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I was watching Toy Story and it got interrupted , at that moment.

[00:16:40] Which admittedly was very sad because I loved her. my parents always used to joke that I used to refer to, Princess Diana as the Queen of Tarts.

[00:16:48] Because she was Queen of Hearts, wasn't she? And I think maybe I was conflating. The Alice in Wonderland Queen. 

[00:16:54] Who was also the Queen of Hearts. I don't know where the Queen of Tarts came from. 

[00:16:57] Adam Cox: You just loved a good tart. I do, 

[00:16:58] Kyle Risi: I just loved a good Jam [00:17:00] tarts, we're talking about, right?

[00:17:01] But yeah, so, I know I'm talking about Princess Diana here, but the two things overlap for me because they were so similar. They were so beloved. And it's almost as if, Jill Dando replaced Princess Diana and filled that void because they were so, eerily similar looking, right?

[00:17:16] Adam Cox: Yeah, it's interesting because they looked so similar, because they perhaps had such good nature, they did a lot for charities and public service and stuff, I think the two just became intertwined a little bit.

[00:17:27] And, um, we'll come on to why they looked so similar. A little bit later, actually. Oh, that's creepy. Why do you make it sound creepy? It's not supposed to be creepy. It's a fact that I found out, which I thought was quite interesting. 

[00:17:37] Kyle Risi: Interesting. So will you also go into a bit about who Jill was? Was she married?

[00:17:41] Did she have kids? 

[00:17:42] Adam Cox: yeah, let's start with a bit of background to Jill because, those that are listening outside the UK are probably thinking, who? But, it did reach, news publications and broadcast in America and all over the world because it was such a, so to try and explain who she was and how someone so innocent might have begun to pick up [00:18:00] enemies on her rise to fame.

[00:18:01] She was born in Western Supermere, from what I understand she had a good but quite a modest upbringing. And from early on she was interested in words, and so it was almost a given that she would go on to study journalism, which she did. After graduating, she gets her first job as a trainee reporter for a local newspaper called the Western Mercury, where her father and brother also worked, so keeping it within the family.

[00:18:23] And after several years as a print journalist, she went on to work for the BBC, starting out as a newsreader for local BBC radio. Over time, she makes the transition to TV, presenting regional BBC programming. And it's from this that she catches the attention of national BBC TV producers.

[00:18:40] And what was apparent straight away was that she had this confident, eloquent, but classless English voice. She could speak to and for everyone. And one of the BBC executives that spotted her was a man named Bob Wheaton. 

[00:18:52] Kyle Risi: Okay, I have an issue with, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but you said she had a classless kind of accent.

[00:18:58] But that probably [00:19:00] means something to people in the UK, it makes sense, but to people outside the UK, you're making it sound like she was a hussy. 

[00:19:06] Adam Cox: No, I guess, um, 

[00:19:08] Kyle Risi: she spoke really 

[00:19:09] Adam Cox: well, eloquently, but she didn't, it wasn't obvious that she was, like, rich or anything like that. It was just quite normal. She spoke 

[00:19:14] Kyle Risi: well, but she could, she had an accent that, Couldn't necessarily be identified as any particular group.

[00:19:20] Therefore. She connected to everyone. 

[00:19:23] Adam Cox: Yeah, you wouldn't put her in any class if that makes sense. 

[00:19:25] Kyle Risi: was classless, but not Classy. Yeah, she wasn't Adams mom. She 

[00:19:30] Adam Cox: was very classy and stop that right now , so, as I was saying, one of the BBC executives that sponsored her was this guy called Bob Wheaton.

[00:19:39] And not only does he become her boss, but they have a romantic relationship for several years. There is an interview of him where, I'll be honest, I understand to be on TV or in the spotlight, you need to have a good image. But he described Jill at first being too regional looking and needed to lose weight if she was going to be on national TV.

[00:19:57] Kyle Risi: Regional looking? What the hell does that mean? 

[00:19:59] Adam Cox: She looked [00:20:00] like she'd come off the farm. If that makes sense. 

[00:20:03] Kyle Risi: What a misogynistic 

[00:20:04] Adam Cox: piece of shit. I know and this is someone that she went on to date and I just thought 

[00:20:08] Kyle Risi: that's really Different time though, maybe it was not seen as like that. Like negative in that way.

[00:20:14] Adam Cox: Yeah and he just thought she was going to be a hit but she needed to change her image, which I guess is no different to a music manager or like a film star agent or something like that. It's just weird that they got together and He thought of her like 

[00:20:28] Kyle Risi: that. Yeah. And then you've also got this person who is trying to, orchestrate your image and what you do and control you in that way, so you can be a big star, but at the same time you're having relationship with them.

[00:20:41] So it's almost like this unequal kind of balance of power within their relationship. Yeah. It's almost seen as like someone, he is your, what's the word? 

[00:20:52] Adam Cox: Your boss. 

[00:20:52] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:20:53] It's the balance of power there that's clearly not on an equal footing. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:20:59] Adam Cox: Yeah, I don't [00:21:00] think they went out straight away, but I guess to go out with someone that's thought of you in that way, I don't know how I would feel about that, but I don't know, showbiz. 

[00:21:09] Kyle Risi: BBC News showbiz.

[00:21:11] Adam Cox: But anyway, the point is she's given this amazing opportunity to be on national news and she takes that chance. She loses some weight and she switches up her styling, losing her curly permed hair to something more elegant. She meets her hairdresser and she says she needs something new, more mature, for tv.

[00:21:27] And so he cuts it quite a bit shorter to this blonde textured pixie cut, which I think is the term for it. And it became her signature look. She even drew comparison to having the same hairstyle as Princess Diana. But it turns out Jill had the haircut first. Oh, she was the trendsetter.

[00:21:43] Kyle Risi: Oh, I see. Really? Yeah. Interesting. I have to look at some pictures of her online. Yeah, goodness. I mean, I can clearly tell the difference between Jill Dando and Princess Diana, I can see there's a clear difference, but they have, to me, they have the same bright smile , do you know what I mean, and the look, [00:22:00] and the blonde hair, and the blue eyes.

[00:22:01] Interesting. 

[00:22:02] Adam Cox: So Jill goes on to present Breakfast News, the One O'Clock News, and the Six O'Clock News, so primetime television, which meant she became a household name in the 1990s. She then landed jobs on other shows on the BBC, one was called Holiday, which looked like one of the best shows to work on, because She's paid to go abroad to review places and hotels.

[00:22:22] Kyle Risi: Is it like a place in the sun? 

[00:22:24] Adam Cox: I guess a bit like that. It's almost like the time before influencers. She would go there, she would rate the meals, she'd say this is where you can go, and then she'd say it would cost you a thousand pounds or whatever.

[00:22:33] One of her most notable shows was the show called Crime Watch, which you brought up. So again, this was on the BBC, and it had this great reputation for solving crime. People from all over the UK would call in to help police solve unsolved crimes, including murders, and based on news stories and dramatized reproductions of a crime.

[00:22:53] So, um, it worked really well. It sparked a lot of the public's memory about certain crimes to, help track down [00:23:00] suspects and put criminals behind bars. And so Bob Wheaton, Jill's boss and eventual partner, thought Jill should exercise caution when taking this role because being the face of a show aimed to put criminals behind bars is the kind of show which could make you a target.

[00:23:15] Wow, so 

[00:23:16] Kyle Risi: this is like a warning from the beginning. 

[00:23:18] Adam Cox: Wow. But to Jill, she thought it was public service broadcasting at its best, as it got results and helped serve justice. There's an interesting clip where she's being interviewed and some kid asks her if she ever gets worried about some of the things she sees on Crimewatch.

[00:23:35] And she says something like, yes I do, but the crimes they show on Crimewatch are so rare that it's not something you walk out onto the street and think, oh gosh, the same thing could happen to me. 

[00:23:46] Kyle Risi: Mmm. 

[00:23:47] Adam Cox: But of course. The reality is, it did. On April the 26th, 1999, she steps out from her car, walks up to the house, and is murdered in broad daylight.

[00:23:57] So what happened next? Well, once the police [00:24:00] had been alerted, they descended onto the scene, but given that people had tried to resuscitate Jill, a member of the public called 999 themselves, it meant the scene had become heavily contaminated. And for someone in London to be shot in the head, this was incredibly rare.

[00:24:14] So for this to be a celebrity, this was extremely violent. The investigation was thorough, collecting every relevant detail that they could. they gathered scrapings, gravel, fingerprints, and fibres from the scene. A bullet and a cartridge casing were found on the doorstep, and the ballistics expert determined that it was from a single shot to the left side of her head, likely from a 9mm calibre weapon.

[00:24:38] Some thought it resembled a professional execution. 

[00:24:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah, because guns in London, they are so rare. How many guns do you need to check out? For you to find this weapon, it's probably going to be quite easy, right? 

[00:24:50] Adam Cox: You would think, right? Yeah, it's not. It's not, no. 

[00:24:54] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:24:54] Adam Cox: Because the search teams dug through bins, gardens, flowerbeds, and shrubs, all in the hopes of finding the murder [00:25:00] weapon, or any other piece of evidence.

[00:25:02] A postman said that they'd seen a Mediterranean looking man, just about. after 10 o'clock on the opposite side of the road from Jill's house and another witness, a traffic warden, claimed to see a man running across the road, sweating heavily. He stopped at the bus stop and drove off just as a warden was about to issue a ticket to the driver of this car.

[00:25:20] Sounds

[00:25:21] like 

[00:25:21] Kyle Risi: he's trying to evade getting a ticket. 

[00:25:23] Adam Cox: possibly, but I guess, yeah. We've all done 

[00:25:25] Kyle Risi: that run. 

[00:25:26] . We've all looked out the window and seen the parking warden. 

[00:25:28] Adam Cox: And then run out, yeah.

[00:25:29] Kyle Risi: Yeah, you send a text to all your neighbours going, The parking warden! Quick! Everyone starts running out and everyone's quick! 

[00:25:35] Adam Cox: Drive away! And that's the thing, it could have been something completely innocent, but I guess just at the time you have to go through everything. You want to 

[00:25:41] Kyle Risi: check everything out, right?

[00:25:42] Adam Cox: Yeah. The description of the man was that he was quite tall, white, and had dark hair, but nothing else. No mask, no gloves, nothing particularly odd. And at the time, it was unclear whether one, two, or even three people were involved. Everyone on that street that day had to be investigated. But what was quite peculiar was that no witness claims have ever heard a [00:26:00] gunshot.

[00:26:00] nor had they found a gun or anyone had seen it. The possibility that the weapon had a silencer, which despite what movies suggest, is apparently really rare in real life, which led some to consider that this might have been a professional job. 

[00:26:14] Kyle Risi: Can we just backtrack that? 

[00:26:15] What do you mean it's rare? 

[00:26:16] Adam Cox: I guess we always watch TVs and shows and we always see the silencer, which they screw on.

[00:26:21] Mm hmm. Uh, apparently that's not common in real life, in real crime. Oh sure, 

[00:26:25] Kyle Risi: but I guess then that leads credence to the fact that if a silencer was used, that gives credibility to it being a professional hit, right?

[00:26:33] Yes, 

[00:26:34] Adam Cox: that's what they're saying because no one had heard a gunshot and it's so rare that it's, people that do have guns probably wouldn't have a silencer. 

[00:26:41] Kyle Risi: But why would someone want to Shooter, but then I guess like crime watch isn't just about petty crime and someone robbing a corner store.

[00:26:50] They also deal with matters of organized crime. So it could be big gangs involved in this that probably would have the means. to carry this [00:27:00] out. 

[00:27:00] Adam Cox: yeah, especially if you're connected to other criminal, lords, gangs, I don't know what it might be. 

[00:27:05] Kyle Risi: So what were the most prominent gangs in London around about this time?

[00:27:08] you always hear oh, it's New York, it's going to be the Italian mafia, right? Or in Italy, it's going to be the mafia. But what gangs were about? in London at this point? 

[00:27:17] Adam Cox: They did investigate the Mafia but I don't think there was any strong leads We're going to touch on the Serbians at the time and what was happening in Serbia, which is why they, I guess they came as a suspect. so there is definitely a connection here and it's all linked to some of the things that Jill was doing on TV at the time. 

[00:27:34] Kyle Risi: when you talk about the Serbians, just so I can understand this, are we talking like Montenegro and what happened in Bosnia and the Bosnian war and 

[00:27:41] Adam Cox: the Balkan war. Yeah. because at the time, there was a lot of war going on in Kosovo and other places, which we'll touch on a bit later. 

[00:27:49] Kyle Risi: Okay.

[00:27:50] Adam Cox: the day after Jill's death, newspapers were filled with stories about the murder and colleagues, which became friends of Jill, had to report on her death across TV and newspapers. [00:28:00] She was one of their own, so it was incredibly difficult, and particularly for female journalists at the time, because they no longer felt safe.

[00:28:06] They felt like they could be targeted next. Reflecting back on what happened, these journalists say that it's highly likely that after Princess Diana's death The second biggest story that they will ever work on was Jill Dando's murder. That was just how big it was in the UK at the time. 

[00:28:20] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[00:28:21] Adam Cox: the police, the press and the public were in a state of shock.

[00:28:24] And for a long time there was no real idea or clue as to who could have done this. Was it someone she knew? Was it a criminal looking to get revenge? Was it some mad obsessed stalker? Or was it something more murkier than that? The police had to go through every single lead. People that knew her closely were questioned, including her ex and former boss, Bob Wheaton.

[00:28:43] They even questioned her agent, John Roseman, who had written a book about the murder of a TV presenter, a story that eerily paralleled Jill's real life death. 

[00:28:52] Kyle Risi: Oh, 

[00:28:52] Adam Cox: really creepy. And the police examined the possibility that it might have been John, or even someone might have used his manuscript as a blueprint for [00:29:00] the crime.

[00:29:00] however, despite all this and her boss's tough reputation, there was nothing that came from this investigation. so it didn't look like it was anyone that Jill knew herself.

[00:29:10] the focus then shifted to how the killer knew that Jill would be at Gowan Avenue, the road that she, lived on the day that she murdered. She's going home. Well, yes, that's, that's true. That's where she lived, but it was very rare for her to stay at her property because she often lived with her new, fiance.

[00:29:27] so she was just nipping home to pick up something, it turned out, on the day. Clean pair of 

[00:29:30] Kyle Risi: knickers. 

[00:29:32] Adam Cox: I think she had to pick up a fax because that was the day when faxes were a thing. okay. So the point is that someone would have to have known what her whereabouts were and be able to track her.

[00:29:41] Investigators reviewed CCTV footage tracing her movements on the day of the murder. They confirmed her journey from her fiancé's home, through Hammersmith, to several shops, and finally to Gowan Avenue, where she died. Surprisingly, there was no evidence that anyone was following her.

[00:29:57] So they scoured,so much footage to see if [00:30:00] someone, I don't know, was creeping behind a wall, but that didn't happen. The investigation needed to focus on key questions. Who was the man seen running away? And who was the sweating man? And while the police were struggling to identify Jill's killer and understand the reason behind her murder, the press were eager to put out information , because they weren't getting anything from the police.

[00:30:17] So this is where a lot of speculation started to fill the void and this is where the media gets involved and then that leads to news stories which then people phone in on and then that just causes a bit of a wild goose chase or like red herrings and things like that. But 

[00:30:32] Kyle Risi: you have to check all these things 

[00:30:34] Adam Cox: Yeah. One theory suggests that Jill might have been targeted by a stalker as she had dealt with obsessive fans before but her ex agent talks about some of the letters she would receive and whilst they were a bit perverted, there was one actual letter that did stand out to him. It was a letter from a Serbian around a month after Jill had done an appeal for Kosovan refugees following the wars in the Balkans in the 90s.

[00:30:58] it say? Well, it was [00:31:00] somewhat threatening. The Balkan War at the time was happening in what was known as Yugoslavia. And then the BBC started to get telephone threats themselves and the Serbian admits that he was behind Jill's death in the letter. 

[00:31:13] Kyle Risi: Really? 

[00:31:14] Adam Cox: Yeah. So was this the lead the police were looking for?

[00:31:16] Well, do you 

[00:31:17] Kyle Risi: know what? It's so interesting because the thing is though, if you're trying to antagonize someone, of course you'll say that, right? Because you're going to get their attention. He clearly wants their attention. So it's a bit of like, he could have done it, he may not have done it. What do Do you think that lends credence to it? do you think it was him? 

[00:31:34] Adam Cox: So there was a theory at the time that some organisation had activated sleeper agents within the country to retaliate against Britain. 

[00:31:42] Kyle Risi: What does that even mean? Is that what I think it means where they go, 

[00:31:46] Hey Adam, 

[00:31:47] Adam Cox: biscuits. 

[00:31:48] Kyle Risi: And then all of a sudden you go, Yes Kyle, I shall carry out the orders. And then you go and give Keith a big mass of raspberry on his belly. 

[00:31:57] Adam Cox: Yeah, that's essentially it. A much nicer [00:32:00] sleeper agent, but that's kind of what would happen. 

[00:32:01] Kyle Risi: Seriously? it involves brainwashing and conditioning and reprogramming.

[00:32:07] Adam Cox: I don't know if it was actually reprogramming in that sort of sleeper sense that we see on TV, but these are people that probably just blend into society, they get a message, and then that's when they need to obviously do something. 

[00:32:17] Kyle Risi: That is bloody scary. 

[00:32:20] Adam Cox: NATO had recently bombed a TV station in Serbia as part of this war, and NATO justified the strike claiming the station was the centre of Serbia's war propaganda, and so some journalists were killed, among others, and the Serbians were furious, as you can imagine.

[00:32:37] And so,did they want an eye for an eye, and wanted to get their own back, and so they chose a journalist that was loved by the country. 

[00:32:44] Kyle Risi: See, I don't know, it sounds like this is just one single guy on his own. I don't know.

[00:32:48] Adam Cox: that's what it comes across as in the letter. 

[00:32:50] Kyle Risi: yeah, and it would seem unusual to me if There was an organization that was behind this that they wouldn't come forward and say actually we claim responsibility as [00:33:00] an organizational level Because then it's bigger right?

[00:33:02] But this just seems to me like just one single guy 

[00:33:04] Adam Cox: yeah, it wasn't a stretch to think that okay, maybe if he was a single Serbian, he could still be connected to some Serbian crime. Sure. Because what NATO had done it pissed off a lot of people. And so people wanted revenge, against NATO and thousands of people from Kosovo were fleeing their homes at the time.

[00:33:23] And they were arriving at the borders of neighboring countries, which is what Jill's appeal was all about. So this was the connection, and why they might've chosen her over any other, journalist or news personality. 

[00:33:36] Kyle Risi: I think I believe it. 

[00:33:37] Adam Cox: A lot of the journalists who reported on the Yugoslavian war said that they were so scared to leave their own house at times in fear that they could be killed because this was what was going around in the newsrooms.

[00:33:49] So the police did look into this. They looked at the Serbian government, Serbian state, Serbs living in London, and they even looked into criminal networks such as the mafia. But there was no concrete [00:34:00] evidence to suggest that this was them or a strong political motive. 

[00:34:04] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so clearly they don't arrest someone, because you did say someone was arrested. Was he a Serbian? 

[00:34:10] Adam Cox: No, he was not. 

[00:34:12] Kyle Risi: Wow, so this is going 180, like it's completely the opposite. This sounds like a solid lead, plausible. 

[00:34:19] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:34:19] Kyle Risi: Because of everything that was going on, but no, they go off and arrest someone 

[00:34:22] Adam Cox: else.

[00:34:22] Someone else, because the investigation's got to continue. So where did it go next? they have to go back to the men that were seen running away, because that's literally all they've got to go off at the moment in time. So one man was seen running towards a bus stop and was sweating. 

[00:34:35] and an e fit of that suspect was released to the public during a press conference. and so the public was urged to help identify this man. he's described as a white male, aged 35 to 40, wearing a dark suit with neatly cut brown hair.

[00:34:49] And so the hope was that someone might be able to recognize him from this e fit. One man came forward called James Shackledon, who admitted the e fit looked like him. 

[00:34:57] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that looks like [00:35:00] me. Should I, should I go up there? 

[00:35:02] Adam Cox: Should I say something? Maybe if, especially if you were in the area at the time, and maybe you just want to rule yourself out, you go Hi, I look like him?

[00:35:10] I don't think it was me. Um,but I don't know what you'd do. So he was arrested and his house was searched, raising hopes that this might be the breakthrough in the case. 

[00:35:19] Kyle Risi: Oh god, can you imagine like you come forward to do a good deed just to rule yourself out, they go and search your house and they find something worse.

[00:35:26] Adam Cox: Well. 

[00:35:27] Kyle Risi: Oh no! 

[00:35:29] Adam Cox: What they found in his house was a coffin. 

[00:35:32] Kyle Risi: Oh, God. 

[00:35:33] Adam Cox: As well as some photographs and materials related to the Fulham area, including what appeared to be the BBC. 

[00:35:39] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:35:40] Adam Cox: James Shackleton was an eccentric kind of character, and he was an undertaker, actually, from Shepherd's Bush. Explainable, explainable. And, what is weird, though, is, he specialised in, specific funerals and making baby coffins?

[00:35:54] I mean, someone's got to make them. Someone's got to do it. Now, it has to be one of the worst jobs in the world, [00:36:00] but from what I remember, he was just in the area collecting wood for coffins, which is really unusual because I thought, the way that I read this is that he's scavenging for wood, rather than picking up wood from a store.

[00:36:12] So why would he go scavenging for wood for a coffin? 

[00:36:15] Kyle Risi: Is he like a freelancer and he's like just trying to make I don't know 

[00:36:18] Adam Cox: it's weird Anyway, where was he getting the wood 

[00:36:21] Kyle Risi: from? 

[00:36:22] Adam Cox: I don't know. It makes it feel like he's like ripping down a fence. Yeah, I'll take this 

[00:36:25] Kyle Risi: Scrap metal dealer. Yeah, and then you're using it to make coffins or something sentimental 

[00:36:30] Adam Cox: So he was accused of having an obsession with Gildando and was suspected of stalking her.

[00:36:35] He dismissed these claims though because he said What 

[00:36:38] Kyle Risi: were they based on? 

[00:36:39] Adam Cox: I guess maybe because he had some footage or like articles on the BBC in his, apartment and then some other bits that they found 

[00:36:46] Kyle Risi: ridiculous! That's like me saying, Hey Kyle, do you know what?

[00:36:48] I think you are obsessed with Holly Willoughby. Because you have an old recording of, 

[00:36:53] Adam Cox: this morning. this is the thing, I think there's not too many leads to go off at the moment. And so they're really scraping the [00:37:00] barrel. 

[00:37:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I see. And I guess probably the media have gotten a hold of this as well.

[00:37:03] oh we found a recording of Jill Dando who's like on all these different TV shows. Could be any one of the 20 different shows that she's on. And they're going, oh yeah, see this is evidence that he's a creep. And he collects coffins and he scavenges wood from forests to make kids coffins. 

[00:37:19] Adam Cox: But he dismisses all this, obviously, as you would do, and his explanation is like, I'm gay.

[00:37:24] why would I be obsessed with Jill Dando? I 

[00:37:26] Kyle Risi: mean, there are a lot of gay men out there who are obsessed with Princess Diana. Not to say that they killed her. 

[00:37:31] Adam Cox: no, yeah. I think what became clear, After a bit more digging that he was a bit of a fantasist. he had previously tried to involve himself in other murder cases and had falsely presented himself a member of the aristocracy.

[00:37:44] Kyle Risi: Oh, 

[00:37:45] Adam Cox: he's just a bit of a liar and a fabricator and he was bailed and eventually cleared from the investigation. So he just wants his bit of fame. Yeah. 

[00:37:52] Kyle Risi: So I guess that makes sense. And like he's seen any fit that looks like him, he's seen as an opportunity to potentially get into the papers and to, yeah, just be part [00:38:00] of this story.

[00:38:00] That's really big. So. Yeah, harmless guy. Yeah. 

[00:38:04] Adam Cox: Yeah, a bit weird, but you know, another red herring. 

[00:38:06] Kyle Risi: So we need to follow up with the other lead then.

[00:38:09] Adam Cox: So I think one of the key mistakes in this investigation was the publication of the e fit, which led to a flood of tips and unnecessary work for the police because people are phoning in going, Hey, that looks like Bob from down the street, and all that sort of stuff. And so it wasted a lot of police time.

[00:38:26] Rather than, trying to track down the real criminal, they had to investigate all these other leads. And so that meant that the reward for information leading to the murder had also risen to a quarter of a million pounds because they really wanted to nail this guy. And it was the biggest reward in criminal history in the country at the time.

[00:38:43] So a huge amount of money. The idea that it would hopefully persuade someone to come forward with actual relevant information, so another indication that this was the work of a lone individual was the nature of the weapon used. The murder weapon, which was a pistol, had never been found.

[00:38:59] However, the brass [00:39:00] casing from the bullet recovered near Jill's body could be key to identifying the killer. The casing had six unique markings around the top, made by hand with a single tool. 

[00:39:10] Kyle Risi: Oh. 

[00:39:11] Adam Cox: Now the gun itself was not a standard firearm, but likely a reactivated or converted weapon. And on the case of the cartridge found was a big clue.

[00:39:19] So these indentations are made on the case where the bullet and the casing meet. So they're like crimp marks. Okay. Does that make sense? 

[00:39:28] Kyle Risi: No. 

[00:39:29] Adam Cox: So the crimp marks, these are typically made during the manufacturing process when the case is crimped to secure the bullet. So the crimp marks found on this bullet case at the scene were not professionally manufactured.

[00:39:40] They were handmade. 

[00:39:41] Kyle Risi: So he's making bullets at home? 

[00:39:43] Adam Cox: Someone potentially was. So do you think 

[00:39:44] Kyle Risi: he's a hobbyist, potentially? 

[00:39:46] Adam Cox: Either a hobbyist or someone that's a bit rogue and off radar, because they're not getting this gun from, I don't know, from some shop or whatever it might be. 

[00:39:55] Yeah, and I 

[00:39:55] Kyle Risi: don't think it's very common for people to have access [00:40:00] to hobbyist guns. So it's likely to be organised crime, right? 

[00:40:04] Adam Cox: Yeah, or somehow someone's got hold of an old replica gun or whatever it might be, they've somehow converted and reactivated an old weapon. I see. So the idea was because these crimp marks were handmade, the police wondered if anyone might recognize these markings or recall handling similar ammunition because It was quite unique, essentially. It wasn't, done by a machine. Also, because of the nature of Jill's injuries , it was clear that the killer was close enough for the muzzle of the gun to leave an imprint on her head, and there was minor bruising on her forearm.

[00:40:36] Wow, so 

[00:40:37] Kyle Risi: he got 

[00:40:37] Adam Cox: really 

[00:40:38] Kyle Risi: close to 

[00:40:38] Adam Cox: her. Exactly. And that might be why the actual gunshot was perhaps muffled, because if you're that close to thewhat you're shooting, that would have masked the sound of the gun, perhaps. 

[00:40:49] Kyle Risi: Geez, poor Jill. 

[00:40:51] Adam Cox: In the early days of the investigation, a man's name did keep cropping up, and his name was Barry George.

[00:40:57] Now, he just lived a short [00:41:00] distance from Gowan Avenue, where Jill lived. Barry matched the description of one of the men seen running away that day, and he had been identified as being on the road four hours earlier. Detectives obtained a search warrant for George's home, and when they arrived, they had to force the door open, and the scene inside was chaotic and filthy, with rubbish piled up.

[00:41:22] A bit of a hoarder, essentially. There's newspapers scattered, and excrement around the flat. I don't know if that's from an animal, or him. Yeah, either way, gross. And so the conditions were so extreme that it seemed pretty much unreal, like it was out of a movie. In terms of going into his place during the search, they discovered a three-quarter length coat matching what the man's seen running away was that day.

[00:41:44] Parts of a gun holster. And a handwritten list of firearms, undeveloped film, and various magazines on firearms and martial arts. 

[00:41:53] Kyle Risi: Okay, this is not looking good for this George guy. 

[00:41:56] Adam Cox: Barry George. This is not looking good for Barry George. Especially [00:42:00] when they find media coverage of Jill Dando in this place.

[00:42:03] Kyle Risi: Okay, again, it depends what kind of media coverage. Are they stacked in recorded VHS tapes, or stacked up with Jill's name on it? Or is it just a recording that is recorded from the telly? It could have been through magazines 

[00:42:14] Adam Cox: or newspapers, yeah, exactly. So, um, Although this material appears suspicious, there's no direct link between George being at the crime scene at the time.

[00:42:24] So the police develop the film that they find at George's flat and they discover hundreds of photographs of different women. Many taken from behind or at a distance on the street. 

[00:42:35] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:42:35] Adam Cox: One photo was particularly alarming. It showed Barry George holding a handgun, similar to the one reported to have killed Jill, and was wearing a gas mask.

[00:42:45] these are characteristics of someone who could be connected. 

[00:42:48] Kyle Risi: One hundred percent. There's a smoking gun here, right? Yeah. Stalking women. He's wearing a gas mask. So why would you wear a gas mask? You don't want to be spotted. You're up to something [00:43:00] nefarious. 

[00:43:00] Adam Cox: Yeah 

[00:43:00] tell

[00:43:00] Kyle Risi: me they arrest this guy.

[00:43:02] Adam Cox: Well, he denies it's him, despite the resemblance. Of course. Especially the photo of him, wearing the gas mask and the gun, even though it looks like him. 

[00:43:10] Kyle Risi: Yeah, and he's the one who's got those photographs in his possession, undeveloped. 

[00:43:14] Adam Cox: That's probably like in his place, wearing his clothes.

[00:43:16] Yeah, exactly. So Barry fit the profile of a disturbed, infatuated loner the police suspected was behind the murder. Mhm. So during his interrogation, George surprisingly answered some questions, including admitting to possessing a replica gun. He repeatedly denied knowing Jill Dando, even though, there was media coverage found of Jill at his flat.

[00:43:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah, the most famous women in the UK at the time. 

[00:43:40] Adam Cox: Yeah, that's like me asking you, do you know who, No, 

[00:43:45] Kyle Risi: I don't know who you mean what Freddie Mercury. Yeah, exactly 

[00:43:48] Adam Cox: Barry is arrested, all the evidence is pointing at him at this stage. Mm hmm. Um, and this story of his arrest is as big a story as Jill Dando's murder itself. [00:44:00] The media and public were desperate to know everything about him, his life story.

[00:44:04] And it was discovered he was diagnosed with Asperger's. he also had committed serious previous crimes, including attempted rape and assault on women for which he had served time in prison before. 

[00:44:15] Kyle Risi: This is the guy, man. This is the guy. 

[00:44:18] Adam Cox: It seems that way, right? Um, he'd also gone by various other names, including Paul Gadd.

[00:44:23] that's the real name of Gary Glitter. 

[00:44:25] Kyle Risi: Paul Gadd. 

[00:44:26] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:44:26] Kyle Risi: Why would you go with that name? And that was an alias he assumed. 

[00:44:29] Adam Cox: Yeah. So I don't know if Gary Glitter was known to be the creep that he was at the time, but Barry chose this name. and what actually tipped him off to the police was the fact that he had gone to various businesses using another name, Barry Bulsara, telling people he was the cousin of Freddie Mercury 

[00:44:46] And was seeking CCTV footage of him on different premises which he could use as an alibi on the whereabouts of Jill Dando's death. 

[00:44:56] Kyle Risi: What? This is so him! 

[00:44:58] . 

[00:44:58] Adam Cox: Who else could it be at this stage? No, [00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Kyle Risi: but I don't know why, and you haven't said it, but something means that , it's not him.

[00:45:07] Adam Cox: So the thing is. What's 

[00:45:07] Kyle Risi: What's the catch? 

[00:45:08] Adam Cox: Before I investigated this, I thought they had found Jill Dando's murderer. And I thought it was him. But? I thought it was a closed case. 

[00:45:15] Kyle Risi: Really? 

[00:45:16] There's gotta be him. Okay, so you're leading me down. You're leading us. 

[00:45:19] Down the wrong path. Only for us to go, no, no, no, Kyle. this way.

[00:45:24] So stop it. 

[00:45:26] Adam Cox: Okay, so I'll lean into this just a little bit more before I like okay. 

[00:45:30] Kyle Risi: Sorry listeners 

[00:45:31] Adam Cox: So one piece of evidence that could prove that he was at the scene of the crime was his three quarter length coat similar to what? Witnesses described the man seen running away was wearing 

[00:45:41] The coat was photographed and sent to forensic analysis, and by the time that this is sent, it's about a year after, Jill Dando's death. 

[00:45:48] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:45:48] Adam Cox: And so, anything that they find is probably gonna be minimal, but they look for things fibres, blood, gunshot residue. just when it seemed George might have to be released because there wasn't enough , Direct [00:46:00] evidence to keep holding him, forensic experts discover a single particle of gunshot residue inside the coat pocket.

[00:46:08] Kyle Risi: Okay, we know he had a gun. 

[00:46:10] Adam Cox: Mm hmm. 

[00:46:11] Kyle Risi: So that's not surprising. 

[00:46:13] Adam Cox: Yeah, and this residue indicate that George, had been in the presence of, a firearm, that had gone off. and so I guess this was the link to say that he could have been there at the crime, because this is the coat that was seen, or a coat like this was seen at the crime, and therefore this could be him.

[00:46:30] Kyle Risi: Sure, but it does feel like if he was the one who shot Jill, There'll be more than just one particle of gun residue. 

[00:46:39] Adam Cox: You would think, but maybe it's like a year later, he's washed it a few times, some of that residue's disappeared, but there's still this one bit of residue that's still in there.

[00:46:48] Oh, fine. it's a tenuous link, if you ask me, but it's all the police have got to hang their hat on. It's all 

[00:46:53] Kyle Risi: circumstantial, right? Yeah. they've got all this other stuff as well to go along with it, and it might all [00:47:00] be weak. Yeah. But when it mounts up, it's like, hang on a minute, you're probably more likely to have done this.

[00:47:05]

[00:47:05] Adam Cox: because I think all the other evidence is about his character, but nothing there can pinpoint that he was at the crime. And so that's the bit that the police have to try and prove, So when the police ask him about the gunshot residue found in his coat, George couldn't provide an explanation.

[00:47:20] And on his sister's advice, he makes no further comments. And with this new evidence, the police have enough now to charge, Barry George with the murder of Jill Dando. 

[00:47:29] Kyle Risi: So he gets arrested. He's our guy. 

[00:47:31] Adam Cox: Yeah, I mean, the evidence right now is pretty compelling that it's him. he had a violent nature based on the way that he attacked women in the past. And he did have an obsession with Princess Diana, a woman who looked a lot like Jill Dando.

[00:47:44] Oh, interesting. And he'd been caught in the grounds of Kensington Palace with a coil of rope, wearing combat gear, carrying a 12 inch hunting knife. 

[00:47:52] Kyle Risi: What was he going to be doing with that? 

[00:47:54] Adam Cox: I don't know, but it's not looking good. I don't know if he's just on a, on a jolly. I don't, I don't [00:48:00] generally know, but he didn't hurt anyone.

[00:48:01] Kyle Risi: Certainly up to mischief. 

[00:48:02] Adam Cox: Yeah. So none of these things make him a murderer in isolation, of course, but to me it doesn't add up. His family, however, stick by him and his sister in particular, defends him, against all odds. They enlist a man named Michael Mansfield, a high profile barrister known for 

[00:48:18] handling major cases, particularly, in the UK. So he, did the Hillsborough disaster and a lot of the things that happened in relation to that. So Mansfield initially found it challenging to connect with Barry because of how he was responsive to him and just seemed quite unusual to most of his clients.

[00:48:35] But Mansfield was concerned that the police had built their case on the idea that Barry being a loner with an interest in women and guns, was guilty based on circumstantial evidence rather than concrete proof. Which is what we're saying like everything looks like it's pointing to him.

[00:48:49] Yeah. But nothing really feels strong enough. 

[00:48:52] Kyle Risi: And it needs to be concrete. Is that what they're saying? 

[00:48:55] Adam Cox: Yeah. So he emphasized that the evidence against Barry didn't Constitute [00:49:00] as a solid enough case and so he pointed out that often the key to solving a crime lies within the crime scene itself and he personally visits the scene to gain a better perspective and so when he gets to the scene he observes that the distance from the car that Jill stepped out of to her front door was just a few paces and so it's clear to him that It couldn't have been the work of a lone individual because someone would have had to known that she was going there and then basically hiding out ready to jump her behind a wall.

[00:49:29] And so he just says someone like Barry George who, I guess because of his Asperger's just wouldn't have that kind of ability to do this kind of, I don't know, very, specific and targeted kill like that. 

[00:49:41] Kyle Risi: See, I disagree with that. I can't agree or disagree with that.

[00:49:45] Adam Cox: No, I don't know. I guess from his perspective, and that's he's hired as the defense. That's what he's got to try and argue as the case. And so he believes that Barry George is actually definitely innocent. But I guess a lawyer would would do that, [00:50:00] right? he also questioned whether Barry was fit to stand trial, capable of even understanding the proceedings.

[00:50:06] So when Michael first meets Barry, he noticed that something is off straight away. He's extremely distressed, disorganized, his intellectual abilities are very low, 

[00:50:16] he actually falls into, what they say is the borderline range of working memory and processing speed. so he's just about capable 

[00:50:25] Kyle Risi: Sure, so he has Asperger's anyway, right? He clearly has some challenges. he lives like a hoarder. He is obviously not very great with computers.

[00:50:35] Engaging in normal healthy relationships with women. Mm-Hmm. . He clearly has an appetite for women. , because of course they found all these questionable photographs of him taking these pictures of he just doesn't know how to 

[00:50:49] Adam Cox: express himself. Express himself 

[00:50:51] Kyle Risi: in a way that is acceptable within kind of normal society.

[00:50:55] Yeah. so I mean, none of that's news to me at all. Clearly, I know from [00:51:00] the very beginning that he's clearly has some issues. 

[00:51:03] Adam Cox: Yeah, and I think this is the thing that Michael thinks that, the media are making you out to be this monster. they're dredging up all these sort of stories and I guess making him like this calculating murderer or whatever.

[00:51:13] But then when he meets him and sees how he behaves, he's like, how can you be this person that's targeted Jill because it doesn't seem like you have the intellectual capability to carry out this type of murder. 

[00:51:23] Kyle Risi: Really? see I, I disagree with that completely.

[00:51:26] if anything, it probably makes him more likely to have done it, purely just based on what you've said. But also because probably he might be seen as a pariah to other women if he feels the need to go off and do these creepy things. 

[00:51:40] Adam Cox: Yeah, I think the thing is he probably lived a little bit in his own world.

[00:51:44] Um, I think one, he'd obviously given false names to people in the past. there was an investigation, into kind of what he had done in his background. And actually, he went by another name, Steve Majors, and he was attempting a stunt where he tried to jump over [00:52:00] four double decker buses on roller skates.

[00:52:02] What? A stunt he'd never practiced before. Really? And there's even like a clip of him being interviewed, like on TV, to do this stunt. it ends disastrously. he dislocates his spine and fractures his femur. So he's just a bit of a fantasy driven, person, I guess, 

[00:52:18] the fact that, okay, he wasn't successful.

[00:52:20] Kyle Risi: But the fact that he attempted that. This feat of jumping over all those buses. Yeah. Makes me think he is capable of getting out of a car, walking up behind a woman, and shooting her at point blank range. 

[00:52:34] Adam Cox: it sounds like he has no fear. No, that way. Yeah, there you go. 

[00:52:38] So fast forward to the day of Barry's trial and the outside of his courtroom is packed with television crews and everything like that So it's a big kind of media circus in the first weeks a key witness testifies that She had seen George near Jill Dando's house early in the morning, appearing nervous and trying to shield his face.

[00:52:57] The prosecution also presented evidence suggesting [00:53:00] George attempted to create a false retracing his steps and visiting a local advice centre to establish an alibi for that time in the morning. And then the most critical piece of evidence was a single particle of gunshot found in his coat. during police interviews, George couldn't explain how the residue got into his coat, which the prosecution claimed was evidence of his guilt. forced Jill Dando to the ground and shot her, but George countered that if he had pushed her down and fired the gun, then there'd been more blood and gunshot residue all over him, not just a single particle.

[00:53:30] Oh, he 

[00:53:31] Kyle Risi: pointed that out. He 

[00:53:31] Adam Cox: pointed that out. So it's hang on a minute. You do know what's going on here. 

[00:53:34] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:53:35] Adam Cox: You're not pulling the wool over our eyes. 

[00:53:37] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's true. 

[00:53:39] Adam Cox: Of course, he could have washed his coat and got rid of the evidence. So yeah, maybe, but this is like a year later.

[00:53:44] as the trial progressed, it became clear that the prosecution's case hinged on that single particle of residue that was in his coat, with the rest of the evidence being largely circumstantial.

[00:53:53] Essentially, the trial came down to whether the jury believed the residue particle was enough to prove George's guilt beyond reasonable [00:54:00] doubt. and it takes the judge three days to sum up all the evidence, and the jury has to give their verdict. And after hearing both sides of the argument, they find Barry George guilty of murder, and he is sentenced to life in prison.

[00:54:11] So it was him! They've got him. You led me to believe that it wasn't him. that's where I thought the story ended. That's what I said. Okay, but several years go by and Barry George, who is still adamant about his innocence, is hopeful that the sentence will be overturned.

[00:54:28] Whilst in prison, a man named Noel Razorsmith 

[00:54:32] Kyle Risi: What a name. 

[00:54:33] Adam Cox: I know, he's a criminal. Obviously he's in prison. Served time in Belmarsh prison alongside Barry George. Now, Noel had spent 33 years in prison for armed robbery amongst many other things. He didn't know how to read at the time, but learn whilst he was in prison and he went on to become an award-winning writer, writing for various news publications.

[00:54:51] So it turns out you can reform. 

[00:54:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah, 

[00:54:53] Adam Cox: but whilst he was in prison with Barry , he was approached by a journalist from Punch Magazine asking if he could [00:55:00] interview Barry while in prison. 

[00:55:01] Kyle Risi: Isn't Punch Magazine, like a joke magazine? I dunno. 

[00:55:05] So on Wikipedia says Punch Magazine was a British weekly magazine of humor and satire established in 1841 by Henry Mayhew and apparently the last edition was in 2002. 

[00:55:22] Adam Cox: Oh, right, so it doesn't feel like it's cutting edge journalism. 

[00:55:26] Kyle Risi: I don't know, I don't know if it's a serious publication, but interesting. 

[00:55:29] Well, yeah. So, um, this guy, Noel Razor Smith, is asked to interview Barry whilst in prison. 

[00:55:35] Razor realises 

[00:55:36] Adam Cox: that Barry's slow speech and seemingly naive responses indicate he wasn't the type of person to confess to a murder in a casual conversation, because I think raises experience with other criminals and murderers are after a while in prison You just like brag about what you did or you let slip because you're proud, 

[00:55:54] Kyle Risi: right?

[00:55:54] Adam Cox: But Barry George, he's been in prison for a little while now and he wasn't willing to do that So he just thinks this [00:56:00] isn't the guy that would do a cold blooded execution in broad daylight and keep quiet about it. He would be boasting about this. Really? 

[00:56:07] Kyle Risi: Okay. Interesting. But he never does. So he doesn't think it's him.

[00:56:11] Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly. He doesn't fit at least the typical murderer in this sense. And his family felt exactly the same way, which is why they didn't stop believing in Barry and wanted to do everything they could to fight for his innocence.

[00:56:22] This is where a guy called Raphael Rowe, an investigative journalist, steps onto the scene. a few years after Barry George was convicted, his sister reached out to Raphael seeking help to highlight that her brother was wrongly imprisoned. And at the time, he was working at the BBC, but had a personal connection to Barry's situation.

[00:56:41] when Raphael was 20, he was wrongfully convicted of murder and a series of robberies, spending 12 years in maximum security prisons. And it was his sister's relentless support in getting her brother out, is the reason that he eventually went free. 

[00:56:55] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:56:56] Adam Cox: So there's a strong parallel here, and I guess that's why he gets involved in the [00:57:00] case.

[00:57:00] So if you 

[00:57:00] Kyle Risi: have a determined sister, you'll get off with murder. 

[00:57:04] Adam Cox: Or they'll get you out of prison. When he first speaks to Barry, Barry of course insists on his innocence, but struggles to articulate why. But this was enough for Raphael, he could see, actually, I've been in your shoes, I know you're going through.

[00:57:17] And so he's determined to uncover the truth. And he reviewed every detail of the case, searching for inconsistencies. And what shocked him the most was the only evidence linking Barry to the crimescene was that single particle of gunshot residue. and this particle is basically the size of one hundredth of a millimetre.

[00:57:33] So it's tiny. 

[00:57:34] Kyle Risi: It's tiny, and it's just one. I just don't understand how it connects 

[00:57:37] Adam Cox: him. So Raphael travels to the United States to understand the reliability of gunshot residue as evidence, and he consults with the FBI and ballistic experts in Boston, and they reveal that gunshot residue was no longer considered reliable evidence in American courts due to it could be contaminated.

[00:57:55] Kyle Risi: Sure, and I get that, and I don't think it should be, but it's circumstantial. [00:58:00] Surely it can be used as circumstantial evidence because of everything else that had fallen into place. How he lived, the way he conducted himself around women, the photographs, 

[00:58:09] the fact that he was seen carrying a gun, the fact that he had a gun holder, all these things, , and the fact that he lived not that far away from where Jill was, makes me think that all of these things together, he's probably more likely to have done it than not.

[00:58:24] So yes, fine. The gunshot residue may not be solid, but everything else points to him. 

[00:58:31] Adam Cox: Yeah, everything collectively, but for Raphael, he's like, you can't rely on this in court because the US have turned this out. And so what he does is he gets involved and, tries to reopen the investigation and say, actually, the way that he was sentenced or tried, is fundamentally flawed.

[00:58:48] And so these findings were presented to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which led to a new investigation that concluded the ballistic evidence should not have been used to determine Barry's guilt or [00:59:00] innocence. This then prompted the court to dismiss the original guilty verdict, calling for a retrial.

[00:59:06] Kyle Risi: Okay, so he's going to go back to trial. 

[00:59:08] Adam Cox: Mm hmm. 

[00:59:09] And on the day of the retrial, the jury and the judge find Barry George now not guilty. 

[00:59:16] Kyle Risi: Really? On what basis? 

[00:59:19] Everything was hinged on this gunshot residue. 

[00:59:21] Adam Cox: Yeah, and they're now saying that it's not enough and that you can't determine innocence or if he's guilty just by that. And so he goes free.

[00:59:29] Kyle Risi: Wow, okay. 

[00:59:31] Adam Cox: So there's two ways of looking at this. If he is indeed innocent, what an amazing thing. Raphael has been able to do for Barry and his family, he's given them their lives back. But, What does this do to Jill's family and her close friends?

[00:59:43] They thought they had closure on the case. And now they have to go through all of this again, trying to get justice for Jill. 

[00:59:51] Kyle Risi: But also at the same time, this case probably affected the British public really immensely. So how did they react to the news that Barry [01:00:00] George was now essentially acquitted. 

[01:00:03] Adam Cox: to be honest, I think a lot of people still think it probably was him.

[01:00:06] one, because they don't realise maybe what had happened. They still think that he's the killer, Whenever I see his face, I always think, Oh, that's Jill Dando's killer. Apparently, technically, he's not. 

[01:00:18] Kyle Risi: Okay, so what happened after this, then? Did they have any other leads to go on? 

[01:00:23] Adam Cox: the thing is, the lead investigator on the case that put Barry George away, 

[01:00:28] He still thinks the original decision made by the court was the right one, which is why this case has never properly been reopened since, and because Barry cannot be retried for the same crime, it's telling that the police are not investigating this to the full degree because they think,we've already found the criminal.

[01:00:47] we're not gonna go looking again. 

[01:00:50] Kyle Risi: And they,physically cannot try him again, not even if new evidence comes to light. 

[01:00:54] Adam Cox: Possibly, but I guess no new evidence has come to light and so at the moment they can't retrial him [01:01:00] based on the same evidence. 

[01:01:01] Kyle Risi: It's just crazy to me that they cannot try someone based on the probability of them having done it.

[01:01:09] Based on all these other things, right? it's a shame. I know I should be thinking about Objective proof, but I just feel like all these other things that indicate that it was him should at least carry some weight 

[01:01:24] Adam Cox: Yeah, I agree but what if it wasn't him and the police just don't want to investigate any further because they're trying to save face because there was this pressure to find someone guilty, at the time, and there were so many dead ends and leads, that actually, this is just the best that they could come up with?

[01:01:41] And so by reopening the case in the same way, admits that they were wrong. I don't 

[01:01:46] Kyle Risi: know. I don't know, I've got such mixed feelings about this, because I feel real bad for Jill Dano's family, right? aren't you supposed to be serving the people and protecting them? Yeah. But at the same time, he has been found innocent.[01:02:00]

[01:02:00] But then, I don't know, it's just such a tricky one. 

[01:02:03] Adam Cox: That's the thing, I think, you know, time and time again something comes up in the news about what happened to Jill, who could have killed her. And that must anger her parents and her friends. Because they're like, Maybe they even believe that it's Barry George as well, and people still suspect him.

[01:02:18] They think his demeanour and being, quote, slow is possibly an act, but could he have kept this up for decades? No, I 

[01:02:25] Kyle Risi: don't think so. 

[01:02:26] Adam Cox: still a theory that goes around from time to time about this organized hit and part of this criminal network because Jill got too close to something or it upsets certain groups, but then what about her colleagues?

[01:02:37] No one else has been killed or threatened or at least as far as the public knows. 

[01:02:40] Kyle Risi: That's true. Crime Watch didn't stop just after she got 

[01:02:44] Adam Cox: murdered. , . Now, there is a Netflix documentary called Who Shot Jill Dando, it's a three part series which covers this topic in much greater detail and it's worth watching if you want to find out more.

[01:02:54] But what I find really interesting is the documentary ends with the man who spoke to Barry George in prison, that [01:03:00] Noel Razorsmith. Now, he was the man that had 58 convictions against him and he's turned into a writer and he was asked if he has any ideas who killed Jill Dando. I. guess because he still has connections to the criminal underworld from his journalism.

[01:03:15] For his own safety, he says he is not willing to properly answer that question, but alludes to the fact that there are rumours in the criminal world about whodunit, and he says it's not Barry George, and it's not who we think either. It was a professional job. 

[01:03:29] Kyle Risi: And he reveals, 

[01:03:32] Adam Cox: he comments on why he thinks Jill was killed, that would reveal who was behind it.

[01:03:38] Kyle Risi: So he can't even say why, and he's still in prison is he? 

[01:03:41] Adam Cox: No, he's out now. And he's, he's free. He, he's reformed, But supposedly he knows. 

[01:03:47] Kyle Risi: And he's doing that to protect himself, right? Surely he could anonymously tip them off. 

[01:03:52] Adam Cox: I don't know. it's incredibly cryptic. And I don't know if it's just,hearsay or whatever it might be that he hears from someone but [01:04:00] he seems to generally suggest that he knows but I feel like this documentary has been made and Jill's family are going to watch this and they're going to see this guy saying that he knows.

[01:04:11] Kyle Risi: I don't think he does though because there is ways that you could give over that information without incriminating yourself. Yeah, there's got to be a way. 

[01:04:20] Adam Cox: I don't know if it's just Netflix being Netflix. Yeah, or if there is more to it. 

[01:04:26] Kyle Risi: That's a shame. I really do hope they Get to the bottom of it, but what it's been what 20 25 years now 

[01:04:33] Adam Cox: a long time.

[01:04:34] So will we ever know I don't know Maybe more will be revealed on some deathbed confession. That's always 

[01:04:40] Kyle Risi: the case, isn't it? 

[01:04:41] Adam Cox: Always the case but for now at least that is the mystery surrounding who shot Jill Dando 

[01:04:47] Kyle Risi: Every time you say that is the mystery of who shot Jill Dando or every time you say those words shot Jill Dando I always think who shot Roger Rabbit that's what I think you're about to say.

[01:04:57] Adam Cox: Well, one is real life, one is a movie. 

[01:04:59] Kyle Risi: I [01:05:00] understand that, but I just keep thinking that's what the next words out of your mouth was going to be. Yeah. But that was a real sad story and really gripping and something that I didn't know a lot about. Like I was very aware of it, but didn't really know the details.

[01:05:15] Didn't know that someone was actually arrested for it. 

[01:05:18] And 

[01:05:18] Adam Cox: got off with it. I didn't know all the connection to Serbia. I think maybe I was just too young at the time to really probably process what was going on in the news. So I guess if you were a bit more conscious than I was then, you would, you'd know about this sort of stuff.

[01:05:30] But yeah, , it's one of the biggest mysteries in the UK in terms of crime and stuff like that. And it's still unresolved and I just wish we could find her killer. Or we have. Maybe we have. 

[01:05:41] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I still find it hard to believe that it wasn't Barry George. 

[01:05:44] Adam Cox: He's now living in Ireland, , to escape, I guess, people from the UK that might be harassing him.

[01:05:49] But, yeah, we'll never know, I guess. 

[01:05:51] Kyle Risi: Shall we run the outro? 

[01:05:52] Let's do it. 

[01:05:54] Adam Cox: And that's it for another episode of The Compendium. If you enjoyed today's episode, please follow us on your favourite [01:06:00] podcast app. It really helps us when you do. Next week's episode is available seven days early on our free access Patreon.

[01:06:07] for more content, subscribe to our Certified Freaks tier for access to our entire backlog, exclusive posts, and sneak peeks. We release new episodes every Tuesday, and until then, remember, sometimes the most tragic stories are the ones that never fully reveal their secrets, leaving scars that time struggles to heal.

[01:06:26]

[01:06:26] Adam Cox: Until next time. See you later.