Menendez Brothers: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story

In this episode of The Compendium, we explore the dark and tragic story of the Menendez Brothers Lyle and Erik. Unraveling the shocking truth behind why they killed their parents. We'll dive into their infamous trial, the abuse claims that surfaced, and how it captivated the nation. What really happened during the Menendez Brothers trial? Did the Netflix documentary do their story justice? From the chilling 911 call to the courtroom drama, we break down the events that led to this notorious crime and the lasting legacy of Lyle and Erik Menendez.

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:

1. “The Menendez Murders: The Shocking Untold Story of the Menendez Family” by Robert Rand
2. “Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story”Netflix
3. “Lyle and Erik Menendez” Wikipedia
4. “Truth and Lies: The Menendez Brothers” (ABC Documentary)

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Credits:

• Hosts: Kyle Risi & Adam Cox
• Intro and Outro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin
• All the Latest Things Intro: Clowns by Giulio Fazio

Chapters

• 0:00 Sneak peak
• 0:54 Welcome to The Compendium
• 1:31 Todays topic introduction
• 5:52 All the latest things
• 16:05 Topic of the week
• 1:08:20 Outro

Transcript

[00:00:00] Adam Cox: After gunning down their parents, Lyle and Eric meticulously picked up all the shell casings likely to erase any evidence. Then they left their home to purchase movie tickets as an alibi And later that night, when they returned home, they called the police.

[00:00:14] Kyle Risi: And I 

[00:00:15] Adam Cox: put it on the 

[00:00:15] Kyle Risi: dramatics, 

[00:00:16] Adam Cox: right? yeah, because you can listen to the call, and in that call, Lyle can be heard crying hysterically, Really? Telling the dispatcher, they shot and killed my parents, and in the background, Eric is screaming, and Lyle can be heard telling him to shut up and get away from them. 

[00:00:57] Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating [00:01:00] and intriguing things. We're a weekly variety podcast where each week we dive into stories pulled from the darker corners of true crime, the annuls of your old unread history books, and the who's who of extraordinary people.

[00:01:11] We give you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. I'm your ringmaster this episode, Adam Cox. 

[00:01:18] Kyle Risi: And I'm your freak show, your freak in the sheets show, side show, Kyle Reesey. You didn't think about that beforehand, did you? No, I didn't. But that's a good one. I'm your freak in the sheets.

[00:01:30] Yeah, I don't know. Maybe not for everyone. I'm going to Dutch oven you. That's what I mean when I say freak in the sheets. 

[00:01:37] Adam Cox: Good grief. In today's episode of The Compendium, we're stepping into the halls of a mansion where wealth and privilege hide a chilling secret. What could turn blood against blood in a house that seemed to have it all?

[00:01:50] Kyle Risi: Ooh, very 

[00:01:51] Adam Cox: cryptic. 

[00:01:52] Kyle Risi: I've no idea what 

[00:01:53] Adam Cox: this 

[00:01:53] Kyle Risi: is about. 

[00:01:54] Adam Cox: today's episode, focuses on Jose and Kitty Menendez. Hang on. 

[00:01:58] Kyle Risi: I recognize those [00:02:00] names. 

[00:02:00] Where do I recognize those names from? Okay, carry on. I'm sure you'll tell me. 

[00:02:04] Adam Cox: As I was saying, today's episode focuses on Jose and Kitty Menendez, who were brutally murdered in 1989.

[00:02:11] But what was unexpected, which shocked the world at the time, was that their gruesome deaths We're at the hands of their own two sons, Lyle and Eric Menendez. 

[00:02:20] Kyle Risi: Oh, I know this story. Check you out looping back on episodes that we've done in the past. Yeah. Yeah, very relevant.

[00:02:28] Thank you. Why don't you go tell everyone. Like, how they will know about this episode. 

[00:02:33] Adam Cox: you may know about this episode, from the Billionaire Boys Club, where we alluded to the story of the Menendez brothers based on, what was his name? Joe someone? Joe Hunt, who had killed, in order for greed, essentially.

[00:02:47] Kyle Risi: Yeah, essentially. And , a TV show was made about The Billionaire Boys Club, which then aired like in the late 80s at some point, and then these two little jokers. Watched [00:03:00] it, got the inspiration to kill their father, and then BAM! That's, yeah, they're now their own thing. So this is their story.

[00:03:08] Adam Cox: that's what you think happened. What do you mean? There's a lot more to the story than that. Really? They didn't just watch a TV show, Kyle. I don't think I can, like, pad out 60 minutes of some guys that just watch a TV show and kill their parents. 

[00:03:20] Kyle Risi: Well, I mean, okay, I get it. I don't know what's happening here.

[00:03:24] Adam Cox: Okay. 

[00:03:24] Kyle Risi: It's a bit weird, 

[00:03:25] Adam Cox: So today we're going to uncover why the two brothers wanted to kill their parents. For money, 

[00:03:30] Kyle Risi: obviously. 

[00:03:31] Adam Cox: potentially, because initially the brothers got off scot free. They were living a life of luxury, spending the fortunes of their rich family and insurance payout. But eventually the police caught up with them in a way that the brothers could never have predicted.

[00:03:43] Really, on the surface of things, these two brothers seemed like cold-blooded murderers, killing their parents for greed and early inheritance. But actually, as time went on, something more sinister was at play, a dark secret that no family would ever want revealed. 

[00:03:57] Kyle Risi: Oh. Very exciting. 

[00:03:59] Adam Cox: so this case [00:04:00] had polarised opinions for decades.

[00:04:01] Some people believe justice was served and these brothers should be locked up, but crucial evidence was left out of their final trial, which, people keep coming back to time and time again. speculating actually, should these brothers be free? Is there actually a valid reason for what they did?

[00:04:17] Kyle Risi: Really? Wow. 

[00:04:18] , so yeah, from the billionaires, boys club, that was what inspired me to go and research this. It had nothing to do with, jumping on the bandwagon of the new Netflix show from Ryan Murphy. he's doing a sequel to Jeffrey Dahmer, Monsters. Oh, really? 

[00:04:33] Kyle Risi: Oh, that's so cool. 

[00:04:34] Adam Cox: And it just so happens that it's out this week.

[00:04:36] So it's nothing. Nothing to do that. You've expedited 

[00:04:39] Kyle Risi: this episode. Like Kyle, I need to do next week's episode. I'm fine. But yeah, so when we were doing the billionaire boys club episode, of course I didn't go into the story. It was just a footnote, in our research, but I didn't realize that there was actually more to it than just a bunch of these little thuggy kids that went and killed their [00:05:00] dad.

[00:05:00] But they're mum as well, right? Wow, so yeah, I'm really intrigued to hear more about this story. 

[00:05:05] Adam Cox: one thing I will say, this episode does come with a warning about suicide, murder, and sexual abuse. I'm not going to go into too many of the specifics, but I will be laying down some of the facts to tell us the key points.

[00:05:16] So, understandably, if you prefer to skip this episode, then perhaps listen to one of our lighter topics, like lesbian nuns taking down the church, a millionaire dog that hires some porn stars whilst managing a football team. 

[00:05:28] Kyle Risi: all very light topics. 

[00:05:29] Adam Cox: Yes. 

[00:05:30] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:05:30] Adam Cox: But That's very responsible of you, Adam.

[00:05:32] I know, I thought for this episode in particular, it's quite dark. We're talking quite jovial now, but actually it's quite dark. 

[00:05:38] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's it. And I think, a lot of people always tell us that when we approach very difficult, sensitive subjects, they're always really impressed with how sensitively we address it.

[00:05:48] Even though we've never issued warning like this before. Mm hmm. 

[00:05:51] Adam Cox: But with that being said, before we get into this week's story. I think it's time for All The Latest Things. 

[00:05:57] Kyle Risi: Step right up [00:06:00] and welcome to this week's All The Latest Things, where we unveil the fascinating, the extraordinary and the downright loopy stories and strange facts from the past week.

[00:06:09] So Adam, do you know what, since you're hosting this week, I'll go first. 

[00:06:13] Adam Cox: Okay. What have you got for us this week, Kyle? 

[00:06:16] Kyle Risi: So Adam, tell me. What do you know? of burner phones. 

[00:06:20] Adam Cox: usually if you're involved in crime. Sneaking 

[00:06:24] Kyle Risi: cookies. 

[00:06:25] Adam Cox: Yeah, in particular as a five year old, I used to have a burner phone. Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:29] Now, if you're involved in drugs or probably like killing people, you might have a burner phone because you don't want to get caught. 

[00:06:34] Kyle Risi: Exactly. So I was listening to this amazing podcast episode on Search Engine titled, What is the best phone? To do crime on. And Is that a Nokia 

[00:06:44] Adam Cox: 3310? 

[00:06:45] Kyle Risi: Oh, that's what I figured, right?

[00:06:47] But even like back in the days when Nokia 3310s were a thing, it was even like worse than that. Like you would just go to a gas station, you'd buy this like 5 phone, open it up. It's one use thing. You can't even take the battery out. And once it's dead, then it's dead and then you just [00:07:00] chuck it.

[00:07:00] so the episode is all about encrypted mobile networks and how they've become the lifeline, but also the downfall for some of the world's most notorious criminals and criminal networks. 

[00:07:12] if you are like an organized crime network, you of course depend on having secure communications, like think drug cartels, human trafficking, puppy thieves, cookie sneakers,you need a way of communicating and you can't just go to the gas station and buy like millions and millions of these different kind of burner phones

[00:07:29] so the go to company for these encrypted phones is a company called Phantom Secure and basically it's a piece of software that's on these smartphones and when you use these phones your communications are virtually untraceable. So naturally the FBI. See this as a major problem because now they can't tap in to these criminals.

[00:07:48] ongoing activity. Oh, yeah. And of course, as you know, we have the NSA, who is this big kind of massive organization in America that's essentially listen to everybody's phone calls in the entire world. [00:08:00] And that makes this very difficult because these phones are encrypted. So when you then try and tap into these phone calls, you can't even tell who is speaking, or you can't even get the tone of the person's voice.

[00:08:09] It just sounds like someone's talking, but it's all scrambled and You just can't tell. 

[00:08:13] Adam Cox: Is it like when sometimes on Sesame Street, you'd hear the other person on the phone and likeYeah, 

[00:08:19] Kyle Risi: Exactly like that.

[00:08:20] So This all changed when the FBI arrested the CEO of Phantom Secure, this kind of big company that's supplying access to this software. And so the company collapses and now there's tens of thousands of criminals who don't have a way to communicate within their kind of criminal networks. So they start looking for alternatives and they turn to a small company called And this results in that quickly becoming the biggest encrypted phone provider in the world.

[00:08:48] And NOM like are really engaged with like their criminal crime lord customers, like even offering like all the best features and they'll engage them as well to build even better [00:09:00] features. And basically, The network just takes off like wildfire and they become like the biggest encrypted phone network in the world.

[00:09:10] Now one of these crime lord influences was really important because of course he was a big boss and then he would tell all his friends how great Anon was and then they would then bring in Anon inside their crime circles and that's how it grows because the thing is if you need a new secure encrypted phone network to communicate with all your buddies then everyone in your network needs that as well right so you don't want to like have hundreds of different types of networks you just want the one 

[00:09:34] Adam Cox: sure that makes sense if fat tony has this then you're going to go with what fat tony That's 

[00:09:39] Kyle Risi: exactly it.

[00:09:39] So one of these crime lord influencers, he was promoting an arm and all of the associates start using it. but despite using the most secure communication, his operations keep getting busted and people around him start suggesting that maybe it's the phones that are the problem.

[00:09:55] And he's like, no, I know Anon. I've been down there. I've seen them. They [00:10:00] literally build features for us. And with that engaged, it's definitely not them. It's got to be some kind of mole. Yes, my organization and he was partially right There was a leak but not in the way that you imagined turns out that the real leak was the Phantom Secure CEO the founder of Anon, he , approached the FBI with his proposition that he would hand over his company in exchange for immunity.

[00:10:23] So the FBI take control of anon and they grow it into the biggest encrypted phone provider in the world. And what I love is that these crime laws are reaching out to anon like requesting brand new features for bosses to be able to manage and monitor their entire network.

[00:10:40] So they've got this aggregated list of all the calls and all these text messages and all sorts. So the FBI, like, yeah, no problem. That would just make everything easier for us because now we can have everything in one big list. That's so smart. So the FBI had access to every single phone call, every single text, every single selfie, emoji, everything.

[00:10:57] Like literally, there were selfies, of like guys [00:11:00] holding up like a peace sign with a dead guy in the background that they've just killed. And it's captured just for lulz. that's how ruthless and just un, what's the word? Unconcealing these criminals were. They just are people.

[00:11:11] Pretty much doing it out in the open because they trust these networks so much. the crazy thing is that the scale of all this criminal activity is just massive. Like it was five times more than what the FBI anticipated. To the point that they couldn't go off and keep arresting everyone because It was just too much.

[00:11:27] They didn't have enough manpower to do it. So they decided okay, in 2021, they were going to conduct a sting operation. And they were going to carry out hundreds of raids across multiple countries, starting in Australia, moving westwards as the sun was rising. 

[00:11:43] Adam Cox: So as you're saying, as people were waking up, they were then that's having someone 

[00:11:47] Kyle Risi: and the reason for that is because you don't want the word to spread right so you want to start from the previous day so you can rest everyone in australia everyone else in indonesia still asleep and then when everyone in indonesia start waking up you start resting them then you move to [00:12:00] europe and then you move to america okay and so They end up arresting like a thousand of the biggest criminals in the world.

[00:12:06] And when the sun rises in California, the acting US attorney, Randy Grossman, hosts a press conference saying we've just arrested a thousand of the biggest criminals in the world. And we did it because this whole time we were a non. Suckers! I had no idea that any of this stuff was going on. Like they've literally cleansed the world of a thousand. Thousand of the biggest criminals in the world, 

[00:12:28] Adam Cox: and so they couldn't have kept that going because they couldn't manage it, you're saying? 

[00:12:32] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it was just too much. But they thought that, okay, if we go public now, what this does is that it leaves these criminals now second guessing whether or not there's another company out there that's also been infiltrated by the FBI. And there's a high likelihood that they're going to suspect that there was because they're going to think, why would the FBI give up on something like this if they hadn't also infiltrated all these other companies?

[00:12:54] So now there's this big, massive insecurity. 

[00:12:56] Adam Cox: invoke this kind of fear, a little bit or paranoia. 

[00:12:59] Kyle Risi: So it was [00:13:00] just such a brilliant episode. Go and listen to it. I know it's not like an interesting fact or anything, but go and listen to PJ Vaults, podcast search engine and check out the episodes called what's the best phone to do crime on. And it's just such a gripping episode. 

[00:13:14] Adam Cox: Good story. 

[00:13:15] Kyle Risi: Yep. So that's all my latest things. What have you got? 

[00:13:17] Adam Cox: this week I found out that a 38 year old man Is believed to be the first guy in the world to suffer this specific strange condition.

[00:13:25] So he is He got food poisoning. But guess where he got food poisoning? In his 

[00:13:30] Kyle Risi: dick. 

[00:13:30] Adam Cox: Yep. 

[00:13:31] Kyle Risi: Ha ha ha ha, yes! How do you get food poisoning in your dick? And why are you dipping your 

[00:13:36] Adam Cox: dick in, kind of curry? I don't think he was dipping it. I think what happened is, somehow he, got contaminated, with some rice, because this is the same kind of spores that you find when you, leave rice out and then you heat it up.

[00:13:48] it doesn't matter if you heat it, they're still there essentially. so these spores, I think got contaminated because just before, his penis started getting sore, he had vomiting and [00:14:00] diarrhea 

[00:14:00] apparently he had sex with his girlfriend, and it was a bit vigorous, and somehow some of the food spores got contaminated But essentially, after having sex, that's when he contaminated the food poisoning.

[00:14:09] Oh, so 

[00:14:09] Kyle Risi: he got it from his girlfriend? 

[00:14:11] Adam Cox: Or they'd just eaten, I don't know. I see. And so, uh, he went to the doctors, and they took some swabs of it, because it was all scabbed up and didn't look good. And they were like, This is weird, this is the bacteria that's usually found in food poisoning. Why is it on your 

[00:14:23] Kyle Risi: penis?

[00:14:24] Wow. 

[00:14:26] Adam Cox: So yeah, after about four weeks it all cleared up, but yeah, you couldn't do anything with it. You had to obviously keep it at bay. 

[00:14:31] Kyle Risi: Do you know, having something wrong with your willy is the worst, 

[00:14:35] Adam Cox: and then I do have one other quick story also about a penis. this one is actually 36 feet long. A penis. Yeah. 

[00:14:43] Kyle Risi: It's got a 36 feet actually. Oh, do you know the one? Steve? 

[00:14:48] Adam Cox: Steve? 

[00:14:50] Kyle Risi: Adam's dad? 

[00:14:53] Adam Cox: Anyway, 

[00:14:53] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so it can't be an animal then. 

[00:14:55] Adam Cox: No, I didn't know about this, there is a, I guess like a engraving [00:15:00] or like a marking within the earth.

[00:15:02] It's called the CERN Abbess Giant, which is found in Dorset. 

[00:15:06] Kyle Risi: Oh, yes, of course. 

[00:15:07] Adam Cox: It's 180 feet tall. And apparently, all these volunteers are re Chalking the outline because I don't know it gets weeds and yeah remarking and so there's all these people that are Recently touching up the 36 Venus , but I've never realized this existed because it dates back to the 17th century Did you 

[00:15:26] Kyle Risi: not know the giant 

[00:15:27] Adam Cox: of 

[00:15:27] Kyle Risi: Dorset?

[00:15:27] Yeah, it's really famous on like a hillside and it's holding a big club Isn't he and he's just got this big massive penis that kind of comes up towards his chest. 

[00:15:34] Adam Cox: Yeah, I've never seen this before and it's quite impressive really But, They don't really know why it's there.

[00:15:39] They talk about whether it's to do with fertility or the gods. But I just think it was probably, I don't know, a couple of school kids, drawing a penis in the soil. 

[00:15:47] Kyle Risi: And that thing is big, though. And that's a lot of effort. 

[00:15:50] Adam Cox: I know, but I think the thing is now people go but what does it mean?

[00:15:53] Actually, it's just a prank. 

[00:15:54] Kyle Risi: It's like a bit of graffiti, right? Like you think of something profound. Yeah. But actually, they translated and it's [00:16:00] turns out that It's a your mama joke or something silly like that 

[00:16:03] Adam Cox: yeah, and that's it for all the latest things. 

[00:16:05] So let's start from the very beginning. Jose Enrique Menendez was born on May the 6th, 1944 in Havana, Cuba. He was the youngest of three children and his parents were renowned athletes.

[00:16:18] his father was an exceptional football player, while his mother was a celebrated swimmer who was even conducted into Cuba's sports hall of fame. The family was really well off, thanks to Jose's dad's successful accounting firm.

[00:16:31] However, after Fidel Castro came to power in 1959 

[00:16:35] Kyle Risi: Fidel? Fidel? 

[00:16:35] Adam Cox: What's his name? Fidel. Fidel. Fidel. 

[00:16:38] Kyle Risi: Fidel. Fidel sounds like his dog. Fidel and Fidel.

[00:16:43] Adam Cox: yeah, when his dog came to power. Um, yeah, back in 1959, The Menendez family's future in Cuba became uncertain and so concerned for their children's welfare, the parents made the difficult decision to send their youngest son, Jose, to the United States for a better life.

[00:16:59] So at [00:17:00] just 16 years old, Jose arrives in Pennsylvania with no money and no knowledge of English. 

[00:17:04] Kyle Risi: they live in Cuba. a communist country. I find it difficult for them to go, that's a really difficult decision for us to send that 

[00:17:12] Adam Cox: kid to the land of the free. Well, I guess like parting with your family is still challenging.

[00:17:18] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so despite the odds, Jose worked tirelessly following in his parents footsteps in both athleticism and business acumen. He excelled in sports, particularly swimming, and earned a full scholarship to Southern Illinois University.

[00:17:31] While Jose had always dreamed of attending an Ivy League school, his financial situation didn't allow that at the time. However, he vowed that if he ever had children, they would have every opportunity that he had missed out on. 

[00:17:42] Kyle Risi: Mmm, 

[00:17:43] Adam Cox: nice. It was at a Southern Illinois University that Jose met Mary Louise Anderson, otherwise known as Kitty.

[00:17:49] Kyle Risi: such a classic 80s name, isn't it? Or Kitty. Yeah. 

[00:17:53] Adam Cox: Yeah. Kitty. She came from a family that had seen its fair share of struggles. Her father had left her mother [00:18:00] and remarried, which left Kitty and her mother to fend for themselves. Kitty worked at the university's broadcast centre, producing content for radio and TV.

[00:18:08] Kitty. And in 1962, she met Jose and the two quickly fell in love. And they got married in 1963 and moved to New York. In 1968, they welcomed their first son, Joseph Lyle Menendez, followed by their second son, Eric Gallen Menendez. Jose's career was on a meteoric rise. He started working for Hertz car rentals and quickly moved up the ranks eventually becoming this worldwide general manager by the age of 35.

[00:18:33] His success allowed the family to live comfortably and Jose made sure his sons had access to the best education and opportunities. Despite his background in accounting, Jose developed a really strong interest in the entertainment industry. And so by the early 1980s, he had become the head of RCA Records, where he was responsible for signing major bands like Duran Duran, and Eurythmics.

[00:18:53] Oh, really? Wow. Okay. So this new role brought the family an immense amount of wealth. And in [00:19:00] 1986, Jose moved the family to Beverly Hills, where they lived in a lavish Spanish style mansion, which I think was previously occupied by Michael Jackson and Elton Wow, so they've got some serious money going on.

[00:19:11] They have some serious money. serious money so he's kind of worked his way up he's come from some wealth yeah he has really worked his way up coming from 

[00:19:17] Kyle Risi: immigrants do though don't they like they really kind of like pull the finger out i guess if you have got the motivation to leave your home country 

[00:19:26] Adam Cox: and get a better life and 

[00:19:27] Kyle Risi: get a better life then you're going to work you're motivated to 

[00:19:30] Adam Cox: Whereas us slackers, we're just like, we'll never amount to anything.

[00:19:34] No, maybe not you. So Lyle and Eric, they never had to want for anything. They were always dressed in the best clothes. They would be chauffeured to school in a limo. And so these two boys were incredibly privileged. 

[00:19:49] So, behind the facade of wealth and success, the Menendez family were far from perfect. Jose was a ruthless businessman, known for his cold and controlling nature.

[00:19:59] Adam Cox: [00:20:00] He applied the same strict, overbearing approach to his parenting, expecting his sons to excel in every aspect of their lives. Lyle and Eric were Pushed to their limits with every moment of their day scheduled and controlled by their father. He and Kitty would sometimes do their son's homework just so they could get the best 

[00:20:17] marks.

[00:20:17] Kyle Risi: Really? 

[00:20:18] Adam Cox: Damn, I wish my mum would do that for 

[00:20:20] Kyle Risi: me. She just didn't care. She just didn't. In fact, anything, she would sneak into my room and sabotage my homework. sorry sir, my mum ate my homework. Again? Yeah, she's hungry. She's got the munchies. She's just trying to see my downfall. 

[00:20:38] Adam Cox: Um, so keeping up appearances was really key for this family.

[00:20:42] Jose even went so far as to make Lyle wear a toupee when he started to bald at the age of 14. 

[00:20:48] Kyle Risi: What? That's so cruel! That's horrible! A. How unfortunate, 14 years old, Going bald. 

[00:20:54]

[00:20:54] Kyle Risi: But also, like, how humiliating. 

[00:20:57] Adam Cox: Yeah, he wanted his family to appear, perfect. That was [00:21:00] it, essentially. 

[00:21:00] Kyle Risi: I get it. You just want the best, right? 

[00:21:02] Adam Cox: Yeah, but, mmm, feels like he's taking it just a tad too far. Kitty, meanwhile, struggled with her own issues, after discovering José's numerous affairs, including a long term relationship with another woman, She fell into a deep depression.

[00:21:15] Kitty began drinking heavily and became increasingly suicidal. She felt trapped in her marriage, but at the same time, she didn't want to say goodbye to the life she had become accustomed to. Accustomed 

[00:21:25] Kyle Risi: to, yeah. damn bitch, I don't like this, but I like the caviar. 

[00:21:29] Adam Cox: One time she almost overdosed on Valium. whether it was on purpose or not, I don't know. But she had some serious issues. As the boys grew older, they began to rebel against their father's strict rules. In 1988, Lyle and Eric, along with a friend, started burgling homes in their affluent neighborhood, stealing high value items just for the fun of it, because they didn't need the money.

[00:21:50] Kyle Risi: Yeah, actually, that's interesting that, you get this rebellious side, because you've been pushed into this box and forced to be a certain way. And when you come from a life of [00:22:00] privilege, so often you find these people acting out just as a form of rebellion, because, 

[00:22:04] Adam Cox: They have to be perfect the rest of the time, or whatever it is.

[00:22:08] and the thing is, when they do get caught, Jose uses influence within Beverly Hills, to get them out of any serious trouble, which just enabled their reckless behavior, I guess,if they know that Dad can Yeah, we're 

[00:22:17] Kyle Risi: untouchable, you know. 

[00:22:19] Adam Cox: But the boys rebellion didn't stop there. Lyle, who was expected to follow, in his father's footsteps in terms of career and progression and attend an Ivy League school. Initially, he had his application to Princeton rejected due to poor grades, probably because his parents, who were doing this homework for him, he never got the chance.

[00:22:35] Yeah. After a year at community college, he was eventually accepted. But once on campus, he continued to act out and he was caught plagiarizing and was suspended, only to have his father swoop in and smooth things over and get him back in. 

[00:22:48] Kyle Risi: He probably likepulled him aside and went that's not how you plagiarize son.

[00:22:51] Let me show you. I had a lot of years practice plagiarizing your homework, or not plagiarize, but rewriting your own homework. 

[00:22:58] Adam Cox: Yeah, by the summer of [00:23:00] 1989, tensions in the Menendez household were at an all time high. Lyle had allegedly gotten a girlfriend pregnant, and it's rumored that Jose paid for an abortion and forced him to end that relationship.

[00:23:10] Wow. Although I couldn't find loads of evidence of that, but there was some reports of that, so don't quote me on that, 

[00:23:17] Kyle Risi: yeah, I mean 

[00:23:17] not very many people want to document 

[00:23:21] Adam Cox: that. 

[00:23:22] Something like that. Eric, meanwhile, had started losing his tennis matches and turned down an offer.

[00:23:27] I thought 

[00:23:27] Kyle Risi: you were going 

[00:23:27] Adam Cox: to say hair. No, he's still got his hair, by the way. He's still got his hair. He's still wearing his toupees. No, that was, Lyle is the one that's lost his hair or losing his hair. Eric, Still got good hair. but he was losing tennis matches and turned down an offer from Berkeley in favor of attending UCLA, much to his father's disappointment. But the final straw came on the evening of August the 20th, 1989.

[00:23:48] Jose and Kitty were settling in for the night. Their sons, who had told them that they were going out to see a film, returned home armed with shotguns. They entered the den where their parents were sitting and opened fire. 

[00:23:59] Kyle Risi: [00:24:00] that came out of nowhere. So their parents are dead? 

[00:24:03] Adam Cox: Jose was shot first.

[00:24:04] His initial wounds weren't fatal. He was still breathing after being shot multiple times. These include two shots in his right arm, one to his left elbow, one to his right forearm, and one below his shoulder. The most gruesome injury, though, was to his head. According to a doctor who conducted the autopsy, the head wound was so severe that it left a gaping laceration large enough to fit an adult fist through.

[00:24:27] Jesus! So basically, almost decapitated. 

[00:24:30] Kyle Risi: Yeah, and I know that sounds horrendous, but do you know what? There's nothing worse than getting shot in the elbow 

[00:24:36] Cause you know like when you hit your funny bone? 

[00:24:39] Adam Cox: Right, okay. On your 

[00:24:40] Kyle Risi: knee, or on your elbow. And it always hurts. 

[00:24:42] Adam Cox: Bloody hurt! You know what, if you get shot in the elbow, I doubt you're going, Ooh hoo hoo hoo, as in 

[00:24:46] Kyle Risi: No, I know, but like, times up by a million. you know how sore that is when you bang your elbow.

[00:24:52] Adam Cox: Well, I don't know if he's even got an elbow left after this, to be honest. No, and 

[00:24:55] Kyle Risi: hopefully, I'd rather be like, immediately shot in the head afterwards. 

[00:24:58] Adam Cox: The shot, to his head, actually [00:25:00] it deformed his face, it mutilated his brain, and fractured multiple bones in his face and jaw. Damn.

[00:25:06] Kitty tried to flee, but was shot multiple times as she struggled to escape. After leaving their parents bleeding on the floor, the brothers stepped out to reload their shotguns. When they returned back into the house, they leaned over, pressed the shotgun against their mother's left cheek, and fired.

[00:25:20] Weirdly, the mother's injuries seemed more gruesome and horrific than those carried out on their father. 

[00:25:25] Kyle Risi: Why? 

[00:25:26] Adam Cox: Well, not too sure at this stage, one of the most telling injuries was to her thumb, which was nearly shot off, suggesting that she tried to shield her face.

[00:25:34] Oh. And that's your mum. 

[00:25:37] Adam Cox: And in a final grisly act, they shot out their parents kneecaps in an attempt to make the murders look like a mob hit. 

[00:25:43] Kyle Risi: Really? Ah, damn. 

[00:25:46] Adam Cox: After gunning down their parents, Lyle and Eric meticulously picked up all the shell casings likely to erase any evidence. Then they left their home to purchase movie tickets as an alibi And later that night, when they returned home, they called the police.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Kyle Risi: And I 

[00:26:00] Adam Cox: put it on the 

[00:26:00] Kyle Risi: dramatics, 

[00:26:01] Adam Cox: right? yeah, because you can listen to the call, and in that call, Lyle can be heard crying hysterically, Really? Telling the dispatcher, they shot and killed my parents, and in the background, Eric is screaming, and Lyle can be heard telling him to shut up and get away from them.

[00:26:15] it is, an interesting sort of situation. Yeah, 

[00:26:18] Kyle Risi: and did you hear this call? 

[00:26:20] Adam Cox: I've heard bits of the call and some of the other sort of evidence that will come on too. yeah, I think you can look it up on YouTube. I'll try and see if I can find it. 

[00:26:26] Kyle Risi: I think that's definitely one for the show notes, right?

[00:26:29] Adam Cox: When the officers arrived, they found the brothers outside screaming and crying. They ran past the officers, through the gate, and collapsed on the street, seemingly overwhelmed with grief. Eric in particular was so distraught they began hitting his head against a tree, forcing Lyle to, comfort him.

[00:26:45] And the police initially believed that this was a genuine emotional response. 

[00:26:49] Kyle Risi: even I think that this is genuine. 

[00:26:50] Adam Cox: I know. it's just really weird that I've described the horrific Murder, and then you've got this show. 

[00:26:58] Kyle Risi: Yeah, this [00:27:00] juxtapositioning of their response afterwards.

[00:27:02] Crazy, and just no one suspects him at this moment in time. 

[00:27:05] Adam Cox: Pretty much. So that night, the police believed the murders were the result of a botched mob hit or a business deal gone wrong. Because of the kneecaps. Exactly. And Jose had plenty of enemies in his career, 

[00:27:16] And the brutal nature of the killings seemed to support that theory. Strangely, the police had dismissed the idea that it could have been the Sons. this was a rich predominantly white family. In Beverly Hills, and they sounded traumatised, I guess the police just thought, yeah, it can't be a family member, it must be, I don't know, some criminal. 

[00:27:35] Kyle Risi: Yeah, yeah. Like, this is a well to do family, They have everything. 

[00:27:39] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:27:39] Kyle Risi: Why would their life not be perfect?

[00:27:41] Adam Cox: But the thing is, had they tested the brothers themselves or their car for gunshot residue that evening, then the case would have been solved, 

[00:27:49] instantly. 

[00:27:50] Kyle Risi: See, this is the thing, man. you've got to follow the processes.

[00:27:53] Even if they seem innocent, just give them a quick test. 

[00:27:55] Adam Cox: Just 

[00:27:55] Kyle Risi: swab 

[00:27:56] Adam Cox: their 

[00:27:56] Kyle Risi: fingers. 

[00:27:57] Adam Cox: interviews, I think the police conducted that [00:28:00] evening, um, I think they cut them short because Eric is distraught and crying and they're like, oh, that's okay. we'll stop it here rather than going, no, I'm going to probe you further to make sure we get the information.

[00:28:11] So the police do come under quite a lot of scrutiny But what was odd, there was no sign of forced entry, nothing appeared to have been stolen, and the only room in disarray was the den where the murders took place. However, as investigations carried on, and the police dug deeper, suspicions began to turn towards the brothers.

[00:28:27] In the months following the murders, Lyle and Eric went on a spending spree, burning through 700, 000 in just a few months. They bought Rolexes, luxury cars. Lyle even purchased a Buffalo Wing restaurant in Princeton. 

[00:28:40] Kyle Risi: Oh really? 

[00:28:41] Adam Cox: Eric meanwhile hired a full time tennis coach and participated in several tournaments in Israel.

[00:28:46] And the brothers eventually left Beverly Hills Mansion, and they moved into this kind of adjoining house or flat complex, in Marina del Rey. 

[00:28:55] Kyle Risi: are you saying that that is the smoking gun that initially raised suspicions that they might have been involved [00:29:00] because they went on the spending spree?

[00:29:01] Adam Cox: It didn't add up because I guess they would have thought the brothers were the sons should have shown more remorse. 

[00:29:08] Kyle Risi: Oh, how 

[00:29:09] Adam Cox: soon afterwards did this all happen? Within a few months. So they're , jetting off to the Caribbean and London. 

[00:29:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but they're young kids. .

[00:29:14] I'd rather be sad in first class on a jet going off to the Caribbean 

[00:29:18] Adam Cox: well, the family, like aunties and stuff like that do say, this is normal behavior with The amount of money that they had anyway, so it's not like it's that unusual, but I guess maybe they're like, maybe you should have had a quiet few months, and then did that.

[00:29:32] So that was just one of the things that kind of sparked some controversy.their behavior at the parents memorial service also raised some eyebrows. on the podium, Lyle read a letter from Jose that was filled with love and pride for his sons. But Lyle himself lacked emotion, and he made a statement that his father always said, You'll never fill my shoes.

[00:29:52] Aww. And he jokingly said, Guess what? I'm wearing my father's shoes today. So it's a little bit, I don't know. That's not the kind of thing you'd [00:30:00] say your dad's funeral. 

[00:30:01] Kyle Risi: It depends. Clearly, there's an undertone here of some anger towards the father. Because , I've been there, where you don't necessarily have fond feelings about someone that I've met.

[00:30:17] Yeah, that has died and you're at their funeral. So I completely get this. 

[00:30:22] Adam Cox: Yeah. But I guess to anyone else that doesn't know story at this stage, and they seemed like a well to do, really nice family on the surface of things, they're just like, that's unusual. Why would you say that?

[00:30:34] That's not respectful. Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:36] and so,Eric, wasn't really dealing with things. he is really struggling to come to terms of what happened in the aftermath of killing his parents. He felt a lot of remorse, guilt, and he confesses to his therapist, Dr. Jerome Oziel. 

[00:30:53] Kyle Risi: So is the therapist like under patient therapist confidentiality and can't say anything? 

[00:30:58] Adam Cox: Well, in theory, yeah. Most [00:31:00] patients or therapists would be under this. 

[00:31:02] Kyle Risi: Not this one, though. 

[00:31:03] Adam Cox: as it turns out, Eric going to the therapist really angered Lyle because Eric had told someone else, and obviously, youthe secret's out, but Eric was feeling so low and suicidal, he was just not in a mentally good place to be able to deal with it.

[00:31:16] And so with their secret out, they realized quite early on that Dr. Azeal's intentions may not truly be genuine. 

[00:31:22] Dr. Azeel suggested they come back for a therapy session together. Oh, no! And that this time they should record the session.

[00:31:29] And weirdly, the brothers agree to this and talk about the murder of their parents on tape. Strange. Now you might be thinking Idiots! Why would you do that? That's absurd, right? But apparently Azeel gave the brothers the explanation that by recording these sessions on tape it would prove to a jury, if anything happened, that They were remorseful.

[00:31:49] But the brothers felt like they were being coerced into this because they felt that maybe Dr. Ozeal could go to the police anyway and that they were being blackmailed. 

[00:31:58] Kyle Risi: I see. , [00:32:00] but has he demanded anything, Azil? Has he demanded anything from them? Has he tried to extort money from them? 

[00:32:04] Adam Cox: No, not necessarily to their face, but what he has sort of admitted is that he is fearful of them, and this is backed up by Dr.

[00:32:10] Azil's mistress at the time, Judilon Smith. Azil had told her that they could be in danger, which would then legally allow him to break client confidentiality. if he felt his life was at risk. I see. So things, between her and the doctor don't really work out for a number of reasons. And she had been eavesdropping on the brothers therapy sessions and had heard the confessions firsthand.

[00:32:35] And she had gone to the police to drop the bombshell that Jerome Aziel had a confession from the Menendez brothers about what really happened to Jose and Kitty Menendez. 

[00:32:44] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[00:32:45] Adam Cox: And so she also claims that Azeel felt like he needed to control Lyle and Eric Menendez and push them into recording an incriminating therapy session.

[00:32:54] And Smith testifies that Azeel told her he needed to get them to say incriminating things on tape [00:33:00] so that they would have something to protect them.and then also he says that he could use that to then divorce his wife because he'd be like, Oh, I need to divorce you. You're not safe. So Azil is not a good person.

[00:33:10] He doesn't sound like 

[00:33:11] Kyle Risi: a good guy at all. 

[00:33:12] Adam Cox: So he's in it for himself. And Julon Smith also says that, he said to her that he thought that they would both now be stars. And so perhaps You know, she's pissed about her ex. She went to the police to get back at him. but it seems like his motives, he didn't really care about the brothers.

[00:33:28] He was in this for his own motivation. He wanted perhaps to be seen as a hero for getting the confession out of the brothers to bring them down. But the tapes would go under a fair amount of scrutiny when they were used in court as they seemed to mask the real motivation behind the murders. But before we get into the real reason, let's recap.

[00:33:44] The confession tape has been made. the police are now aware of its existence through Dr. Azeal's ex mistress, Judellon Smith.

[00:33:51] So the police issue a search warrant, and once they get hold of the tape, they hear the brothers tell Dr. Azeal that they killed their mother to put her out of her [00:34:00] misery. 

[00:34:00] Kyle Risi: Why? And that 

[00:34:00] Adam Cox: their father deserved to die before his infidelity had 

[00:34:03] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay, because the father was torturing the mother , emotionally.

[00:34:07] Adam Cox: Yeah, so it comes across as a mercy killing. 

[00:34:10] Kyle Risi: that's so misguided though. at what point in your life are you taught that's okay to put someone out of their misery? 

[00:34:16] Adam Cox: And also the way that she was killed. He shot her thumb 

[00:34:19] Kyle Risi: off! 

[00:34:19] Adam Cox: And just, that was gruesome.

[00:34:21] Yeah. That's not like a single shot and she would die instantly. 

[00:34:24] Kyle Risi: Shotgun, because that's like pellets, right? And , that mutilates you. How would you want to then have to, you have to now live with that for the rest of your life, knowing that you've decided to shoot your mum with a shotgun, and she's mutilated, and you probably have to watch her die out as well.

[00:34:39] Adam Cox: So you can understand , why Eric was probably falling to pieces . 

[00:34:42] Kyle Risi: Yeah, there's something very difficult to have to deal with. 

[00:34:45] Adam Cox: Yeah, so what do you think's going on? 

[00:34:48] Kyle Risi: I, I have no idea. 

[00:34:50] Adam Cox: Confused. Okay. All will be revealed. I promise. so after the police find the tape, Eric and Lyle are quickly arrested.

[00:34:58] a case against Lyle and Eric [00:35:00] Menendez was built on these confessions and the evidence that followed confirmed their guilt, their spending spree, their attempt to cover up the crime and their approach to life after their parents deaths painted a picture of two young men. who had everything and perhaps committed this horrendous crime in fear of being cut out of their parents will So essentially, what the police think at this stage is that they did it for the money and greed. That's why they killed their parents. 

[00:35:23] Kyle Risi: Sure. Because they were worried that their father was going to cut them out of the will.

[00:35:26] That's, what my understanding is of that story. Yeah. But you're saying that's not the reason. 

[00:35:31] Adam Cox: that's the prosecution's angle. The defense angle was a little bit different, or actually a lot different to be fair. they said that they did it out of fear of their lives. So at the moment, it didn't seem like based on what the police knew of up until this point, that Eric and Lyle were scared of their parents.

[00:35:50] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that doesn't calculate for me. You're going to need to explain how they were scared for their lives. 

[00:35:56] Adam Cox: a secret they had been keeping mostly hidden from the rest of the world was now out of the [00:36:00] bag. We know that Jose was a controlling and strict father, But what many people in the Beverly Hills community didn't know was that he, and along with his wife Kitty, physically, mentally, and sexually abused their two sons from a young age.

[00:36:12] What, both of them? Both of them. 

[00:36:14] What? ? Their mother? 

[00:36:16] Adam Cox: This is where it's going to get a lot. 

[00:36:17] Kyle Risi: Oh my god, okay. 

[00:36:18] Adam Cox: So Jose would do this separately to each of his sons, initially grooming them to say it was one of the ways that men bonded with each other. Okay. And so he'd offer to give them perhaps a massage after sports day or whatever it might be.

[00:36:31] The abuse escalated to include the worst that you can think of, including the use of objects. And he would do this with others in the house and the rest of the family knew not to enter that room or even go on the same floor as Jose because he was with one of the boys in their bedrooms. Shit. Initially, Jose had, started the abuse with Lyle, the oldest.

[00:36:53] And the huge negative impact it would have on him led him to confess in court, whilst crying, that he replicated that [00:37:00] same abuse on his younger brother, Eric. Which is actually, apparently statistically quite a common reaction when you've been abused yourself. You I don't know, reverse, or role reverse, so to speak.

[00:37:10]

[00:37:10] Kyle Risi: because humans are so impressionable, right? That's how we learn from the things around us. 

[00:37:14] Adam Cox: Yeah, so he did the same thing to his brother at a young age as well.

[00:37:18] Sometimes the boys would go along with it. As they were young, they didn't know any better. And, there was a time, they got to spend time with their dad. Oh god! What? What? It's 

[00:37:28] Kyle Risi: just the way that you said that. They got to spend time with They were getting abused, but it's okay because we got to spend time with daddy.

[00:37:34] Adam Cox: I guess, I don't know, maybe the dad's so busy, I think,from what I understand, you can't really separate maybe the two when you're at that young age and you still love your father. and this is a way that you get to spend time, even though it makes you really uncomfortable.

[00:37:49] Yeah. And so they want to, I don't know, they want to 

[00:37:52] Kyle Risi: I get it. Yeah. I think a lot of people get it. 

[00:37:55] Adam Cox: When they resisted,what their father asked them to do, they were punished. And so the boys [00:38:00] probably felt there's no other option.and you'd think that they would be able to confide in their mother, but she would just brush it off or even lock them in the wardrobe for the day.

[00:38:08]

[00:38:08] Kyle Risi: she abusing them as 

[00:38:09] Adam Cox: well? She was definitely mentally and maybe physically abusing them. 

[00:38:13] Kyle Risi: guess locking them in a cupboard will do it, right? Yeah. And like the psychological impacts of your mother going, I don't care. 

[00:38:18] Adam Cox: She wasn't abusing them at the same level as Jose.

[00:38:22] So these kids had no escape and they had to fend for themselves separately. Each brother didn't really know what was happening to the other, not at first, anyway. And one of them would keep Tupperware in their bedroom, as they would rather go to the toilet in the Tupperware at night, rather than risk waking up their dad by going to the bathroom.

[00:38:39] Kyle Risi: Because he would be, like, violent? Or because he would just, go and do whatever he's doing to them? 

[00:38:44] Adam Cox: Possibly, it's then an opportunity for him to maybe do what he 

[00:38:48] Kyle Risi: does. So was, like, he a homosexual then? 

[00:38:52] Adam Cox: Uh, well he 

[00:38:52] Kyle Risi: had 

[00:38:53] Adam Cox: a wife, he had a mistress, he had affairs, so I don't know. I just think anything, you'd just 

[00:38:59] Kyle Risi: do anything, [00:39:00] with anyone.

[00:39:00] It was only in the weeks leading up to the

[00:39:04] Adam Cox: murders did the brothers eventually reveal what had happened to them both whilst growing up. I guess they perhaps both suspected it, but never had a full conversation about it, because there was all these secrets within the family. And it all happened when Eric was looking to go to college, and for him he saw this as a way out of getting out of the house, away from his parents, and a new start.

[00:39:26] But his dad, who controlled the money, put his foot down and said, no, you're not moving out, you can commute to this college. I guess for him he's what am I gonna do? I'm never gonna get out of this. 

[00:39:37] Kyle Risi: So did this abuse just carry on up until the moment that they decided to kill their parents? And how old were they?

[00:39:44] Adam Cox: that's the thing. So for Lyle, I think it was possibly just whilst he was a child. For Eric, it was up till the murders. So I think it lasted over 10 years.

[00:39:57] Meanwhile, Lyle is having a fight with his mum, [00:40:00] and she hits him and pulls off his toupee. And Eric sees this and he's like, I had no idea. My brother 

[00:40:05] Kyle Risi: wears a toupee? 

[00:40:06] Adam Cox: Yeah. Oh, he didn't know? He didn't know. And so the boys console each other. But aren't these 

[00:40:10] Kyle Risi: boys supposed to be brothers? Why are they not sharing things with each other?

[00:40:13] Adam Cox: I don't know. But there's so many secrets , and they were threatened not to tell the rest of the family about what's going on. So there's just so much secrecy. and shame that eventually after this kind of escalation and fight between the dad and the mom that the boys console each other and they decide to just air everything out and go like right no more secrets let's tell each other everything or what's going on and lyle is in fact devastated because He was the oldest.

[00:40:39] He didn't think maybe the same thing would happen to Eric. especially considering Eric's abuse lasted up till the present day. And so they confronted their father and he warns them about telling anyone else. And if they did, that would be the end for them. 

[00:40:53] Kyle Risi: In what way? Like their lives? 

[00:40:55] Adam Cox: Pretty much.

[00:40:56] Kyle Risi: Okay. 

[00:40:57] Adam Cox: So when they speak to their mum about it, Kitty basically infers she's always [00:41:00] known about the abuse. So this woman had been complicit in what her husband was doing to her two sons. How 

[00:41:04] can you just stand by and let it happen? I don't get it either. I mean,she was on a lot of medication she was taking because maybe that numbed the emotion because she was suicidal.

[00:41:15] Everything else, all the affairs, she probably was physically abused by her own husband as well. She was not in a place to protect her sons. But equally, Lyle says in court that she sometimes forced him to touch her. she would wash his body until he was 13, which is obviously, as soon as your kid is able to, you let them clean themselves.

[00:41:37] So, this is a teenager, so she was inappropriate with him. so yeah, she's just as bad in some ways. 

[00:41:43] What's not clear is why they just didn't move out or find another way, even though, the father controlled the money and everything that they did.

[00:41:50] Well, he 

[00:41:50] Kyle Risi: tried to 

[00:41:51] Adam Cox: find a way, didn't he? I guess so, but they, I don't know, his father must have made it so that they just didn't feel like there was another option. and so that's [00:42:00] when,they're fearing for their lives now based on the father's threats. so that's when they buy shotguns as a precaution because they thought that their dad would kill them.

[00:42:08] Kyle Risi: Mm. Makes sense, 

[00:42:09] Adam Cox: so on the night of the murder, things are still really tense. The brothers claim that the last confrontation happened inside their home's den that night, and after that, Eric and Lyle say that their father closed the den's door to their Beverly Hills mansion, which was unusual for him to do this, and they're like, That's weird, this was just really unusual behaviour, but I think it's just this paranoia that probably had set in, based on what their father said. It's said to them.

[00:42:32] And so they're now really afraid. They're thinking, tonight's the night. They're going to kill us. So Lyle and Eric, they went outside to load their shotguns and they went back into the room and they just start firing out of fear. 

[00:42:43] Kyle Risi: Shit. 

[00:42:44] Adam Cox: Okay, good. But despite this revelation, the prosecution team just don't buy any of it.

[00:42:49] Kyle Risi: Really? They don't? 

[00:42:50] Adam Cox: No, because, they make this really alarming statement that men or boys lack the necessary equipment to be raped. Which is horrendous. 

[00:42:58] Kyle Risi: to unpack that for a [00:43:00] second. Okay. 

[00:43:00] Adam Cox: They're saying that men can't get raped. 

[00:43:02] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[00:43:02] Adam Cox: And I think because perhaps it was a sign of the times where male abuse and rape whatever age wasn't taken seriously in the late 80s or early 90s. 

[00:43:11] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I even remember it was only like in the early 2000s when Hollyoaks did that episode with Gary Lucy where he was viciously raped by that gang.

[00:43:22] And I think it was then where I really remember that actually, that's when the concept of male rape started coming to the mainstream a lot more. 

[00:43:30] And back then, yeah, I get it. People probably didn't take it seriously.

[00:43:34] Adam Cox: So the prosecution really laid into the pieces of evidence which would portray Lyle and Eric in the worst possible way. They brought up Eric and Lyle's weird behavior after the death of their parents by going on a shopping spree. Eric had been writing a screenplay with a friend about how a son kills his own father for money and there's a 

[00:43:51] Kyle Risi: smoking gun right there.

[00:43:51] Right. 

[00:43:52] Adam Cox: I know it's a little bit weird. I guess maybe he's kind of, I don't know, putting down in on paper things that maybe were happening to him. [00:44:00] Mm-Hmm. .but his friend admits that some of the details that happened in the screenplay were changed in the lead up to the murders, 

[00:44:04] mirroring real life. So that was suggesting that the murders were pre planned. Whilst the brothers are emotional on the stand, the prosecution were like, we're not buying that. You were crying when you called the police about your parents being murdered. And you admit that you lied then. So why should we believe you now when you were so convincing before, 

[00:44:24] Kyle Risi: right?

[00:44:25] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:44:25] Kyle Risi: Because even you just telling me the story, I was like, there's no way. 

[00:44:28] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[00:44:29] Kyle Risi: That they did 

[00:44:29] Adam Cox: this. I mean, when you put all this together, it doesn't look good for them. 

[00:44:32] Kyle Risi: Mm hmm. 

[00:44:33] Adam Cox: really interesting is how the defense, looked at the evidence. because they had an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that these two brothers were telling the truth.

[00:44:45] There were 51 witnesses, that were called and testified that Jose was abusive, both emotionally and physically. including the relatives of the family. 

[00:44:54] Kyle Risi: So how did they know all this? Not, 

[00:44:57] Adam Cox: I guess, him being a paedophile, [00:45:00] but they knew that he was strict, that maybe he had hit people before, that he was abusive, mental sort of torture.

[00:45:05] Kyle Risi: He had the propensity, like he's more likely. than not to have been like that. Yeah. 

[00:45:11] Adam Cox: character was of someone that could do that. When some relatives found out about this, a lot of them, but not all of them, of course, some of them were like killed our brother, sister, whatever. but some of them were like, this makes actual sense.

[00:45:23] In fact, , unprompted certain cousins revealed details of their upbringing, which suggests the boys had tried to make other family members aware of what was happening. For example, the brother's cousin, Andy, said that Eric had told him about his father's abuse when he was a child. And Eric had wondered, speaking to Andy, is it normal for every dad son relationship for this to happen?

[00:45:44] And Andy's like, no, that's definitely not normal. Yeah. But Andy didn't tell anyone, possibly because of fear of Jose. Yeah, so that's why I didn't really go anywhere. there was also another cousin, Diane. She spent summers growing up with Lyle and Eric, and she [00:46:00] recollected how certain things that happened while she was there were just brushed off, but now they make sense.

[00:46:05] Because once Lyle had asked if he could sleep in the same room as her one night, when he was a kid, and he confessed that Jose had been touching him down there. Diane's thinking, Oh, what do I do with this information? Oh, I'll go tell Kitty, his mum, and deal with this. And she's a damn facilitator.

[00:46:21] Exactly. And Kitty's like, Oh, Lyle's lying. Um, clearly perhaps misunderstood, and takes Lyle back to his bedroom. And so for Diane, she's like, Oh, maybe I got it wrong. and didn't really think about it too much more than that. 

[00:46:32] Kyle Risi: cause it's like straight out of the mouth of babes, and like sometimes kids do say crazy things, and Yeah.

[00:46:38] for example, you go to school, and be like, yeah, my mom drinks and drives. but no, just because she's, drinking soda in the car, right? Yeah. The kid will say it in a weird way. And yeah, so the 

[00:46:49] Adam Cox: kids can get things 

[00:46:50] Kyle Risi: wrong. 

[00:46:50] Adam Cox: Exactly. And so that's what she put it down to at the time.

[00:46:53] but then some other things happened. so growing up, she would play fight with the boys, but sometimes it would go a bit too far and they would [00:47:00] strip her to her bra. She told them to stop and they did but I guess this hyper sexualized behavior is quite common for victims of abuse to act out on others So it's just all these kind of like jigsaw puzzles are now fitting into place.

[00:47:12] Yeah. 

[00:47:12] Kyle Risi: Yeah, everything's falling into place 

[00:47:15] Adam Cox: They also discovered these photos found of the boys within an envelope titled Eric's sixth birthday 

[00:47:21] Kyle Risi: Oh God 

[00:47:21] Adam Cox: so there were these negatives and some developed photos of the boys nude as children which perhaps isn't that unusual because Sometimes it happens.

[00:47:29] Yeah, but, 

[00:47:29] Kyle Risi: but the thing is though, here's the creepy thing. They're in an envelope, they're together, and it's just them. if they were, like, part of the whole pile of photographs, and there's a few of them, and there's the kids naked, that's the thing. But if they're grouped together, and they're contained together, and they're in an envelope, and they're marked Eric's 6th birthday.

[00:47:50] That just all just sounds a bit 

[00:47:51] Adam Cox: dodgy. Yeah, it doesn't it? Doesn't sound good. And the other thing is, these photos, they were framed in a way so they purposely cut off the heads of the [00:48:00] boys. 

[00:48:00] Kyle Risi: So what he's doing, basically, he's 100 percent exchanging these photographs with other pedophiles in the network. 

[00:48:08] Adam Cox: Possibly, I didn't even think about that, because the theory when I was researching this thought they might be disconnecting the image from being the sun , but yeah, that's actually a good point.

[00:48:15] Could he have been sharing these photographs? 

[00:48:17] Kyle Risi: 100%. 

[00:48:18] Adam Cox: what the prosecution say is actually, No, these are just perhaps taken from the boys and obviously it's not a good angle that they were taking pictures of each other whilst they were perhaps playing naked. they were just saying, there's no harm in these photos, but with everything else,

[00:48:32] Kyle Risi: what a load of old shit! they are in an envelope, they're marked Eric's sixth birthday, they're not with the other photographs, there's some negatives in there as well, and the heads have been cut off. Don't tell me that there is nothing wrong there. Don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining.

[00:48:51] Adam Cox: It's very astute, yeah. Then, there was a bit of a hoo ha over whether Dr. O'Zeal's tapes could be used in court. 

[00:48:58] Kyle Risi: Uh huh. 

[00:48:58] Adam Cox: The reason that they could play it, [00:49:00] was because, even though he'd be breaking doctor confidentiality. His life is in danger. Exactly. So that's why the tapes could be used.

[00:49:07] and Lyle denies that he ever threatened, Dr. Azeal. But, you know, this is like, uh, His word against his word. After much back and forth between the prosecution and the defense, the judge rules that some of the tape could be omitted as evidence, but some of the recordings left out. but the thing is throughout the whole tape, the brothers don't reveal the abuse whatsoever, perhaps out of shame, perhaps out of weariness of Dr.

[00:49:29] Ozil's real intentions. Probably out of shame. Yeah, I think that's likely. 

[00:49:34] Kyle Risi: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:49:35] Adam Cox: The prosecution argues that if the brothers had really been driven to fear by their father through all the abuse as children and young adults, then why hadn't they mentioned that abuse to Dr. Ozil? and the trial took many twists and turns. And in the end, after lengthy deliberations, both juries became deadlocked, meaning no conclusion could be reached successfully. A hung jury, basically. 

[00:49:57] Kyle Risi: Which means they go free. 

[00:49:58] Adam Cox: no, they have to now face [00:50:00] another trial with a new jury and a new judge. But this time, that judge is limiting any evidence or motive behind the murder which is linked to child abuse.

[00:50:09] Kyle Risi: Really? Why? that's their whole defense. 

[00:50:12] Adam Cox: Yeah, but 

[00:50:13] Kyle Risi: So now they don't have a defense? 

[00:50:15] Adam Cox: Pretty 

[00:50:15] Kyle Risi: much. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. 

[00:50:17] Adam Cox: Why? 

[00:50:17] Kyle Risi: Do you know why? 

[00:50:18] Adam Cox: A couple of reasons, which I'll get on to in just a second. the jury's also not allowed to vote for manslaughter charges instead of murder charges.

[00:50:26] and so this, as you rightly said , that the defence's case is no longer as compelling and therefore trying to get a conviction that holds a lesser sentence than murder was pretty much near impossible. 

[00:50:37] Kyle Risi: So it's either they are guilty of murder or they're not guilty of murder, but then we can't even bring up what their 

[00:50:42] motive might have been for doing it, which was of course the abuse. 

[00:50:47] Adam Cox: Yeah, I think it could have been brought up, but the amount of evidence was limited. So , it's not as powerful or, um, 

[00:50:53] Kyle Risi: compelling enough. Sure. I understand what you're saying, but why? 

[00:50:57] Adam Cox: So one of the reasons people think that the judge's decision to [00:51:00] limit the evidence surrounding the molesting and everything like that, was that the police and justice system had been mocked and scrutinized recently from the OJ Simpson trial, where OJ was acquitted of murder.

[00:51:12] And so people speculate the justice system just didn't want another hung jury or killers to go three. And so regardless of their motive, they were killers, and they needed to be punished. 

[00:51:23] Kyle Risi: That's horrendous. That's such a major miscarriage of justice. Okay. Yes, they killed and probably on a technicality.

[00:51:33] They are guilty of that, but you need to consider motive as well, right? Yeah, and yes, they probably should be punished for killing someone because that's not the right thing to do, But how you killed them, so the manslaughter side of things, that's so key because then otherwise they're gonna go to prison for life 

[00:51:48] Adam Cox: and This is why it's still debated and a hot topic in terms of a lot of people think they should serve time, but not to the degree that they have done.

[00:51:56] Kyle Risi: I had no idea that this is where this story [00:52:00] would go down. 

[00:52:00] Adam Cox: Yeah, neither did I. I just knew of it based on what you said in the Billionaire Boys Club episode. 

[00:52:05] Kyle Risi: and you haven't even mentioned the Billionaire Boys Club. You didn't mention the bit where they were sitting down in the den, they were watching this TV show on the Billionaire Boys Club, and they're like, You know what?

[00:52:15] This is how we do it. 

[00:52:16] Adam Cox: Do you know what? I will reference that a little bit later on. 

[00:52:18] Kyle Risi: Oh, okay. Sorry. 

[00:52:19] Adam Cox: the other thing is, in the second trial, more evidence from the tape is played to the jury, and without the brothers speaking specifically about the abuse, it only strengthens the prosecution's argument about what they did and the motivation behind it. comes under a lot of scrutiny, particularly by the defence and those wanting a retrial. They critique Dr. Azeal for having leading questions, suggesting theories which the brothers respond to and agree to in hindsight, such as the death of their mother being a mercy killing because she couldn't live without her husband

[00:52:50] And her troubled past and attempted suicide. So the defense pick up on these clues that Lyle and Eric talk about. which if it had been a good therapist, would have [00:53:00] picked up on and probed further. but he doesn't. He ignores them because, they just don't fit with his theory. for example, the brothers talk about their childhood being about survival or basic training, is the word that they use.

[00:53:11] Basic training. Which, you know, Suggest a strict upbringing I've never described my childhood as being basic training 

[00:53:18] Kyle Risi: I've described your childhood as you being basic Thank you And I mean if it was training you weren't picking it up because you were in a high chair till you were seven and that ladies and gentlemen 

[00:53:32] Adam Cox: I will also add to that, that I was able to get in and out of the high chair by myself.

[00:53:38] We were short on room. It was your willingness to not 

[00:53:41] Kyle Risi: let go. Your parents didn't put a stop 

[00:53:43] Adam Cox: to 

[00:53:44] Kyle Risi: it. 

[00:53:44] Adam Cox: they did eventually. Until you were seven. I was eventually allowed a chair. Just 

[00:53:48] Kyle Risi: imagine you, by the way, just so our listeners know, when Adam was a small little Adam, He looked exactly like Russell from [00:54:00] Up, so imagine that for a second.

[00:54:02] But he also looked like, what was the guy from, the James Bond film? Nick Nack. He looked like a combination of Nick Nack and, Russell from Up. And I just imagine you getting up into your highchair, putting yourself in, and just being this little evil little cute little kid. Oh, that's, that was me. Yeah, pretty much.

[00:54:21] Russell knickknack.

[00:54:22] Adam Cox: Thanks. Thanks for everyone that.so back to the tape, Lyle and Eric gave a lot of cryptic answers Saying they were in a dangerous situation leading up to the murders where anything could happen at any time.

[00:54:35] Sure, I believe that. So this alludes to their fear, but again, Dr. Azeel doesn't ask what do you mean by a dangerous situation? killed your parents out of, greed or, I don't know, anger because you had a tough upbringing or whatever, What do you mean, what's a dangerous situation? 

[00:54:51] Kyle Risi: Yeah, an imminent dangerous situation, which means that they're going to be hurt or, 

[00:54:56] Adam Cox: yeah, exactly, 

[00:54:57]

[00:54:57] Kyle Risi: he's not still molesting them, is he?[00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Adam Cox: Eric, he was, 

[00:55:00] Kyle Risi: yeah, 

[00:55:00] Oh, sorry, he was 18. He was 18, he was still getting molested? 

[00:55:05] Adam Cox: pretty much, I think around that age, yeah. God.they talk about, had there been another option? they would have taken it. Again, insinuating that they didn't think that there was any other way out, which doesn't sound like a cold hearted killing.

[00:55:18] You're not doing this out of revenge or whatever. You're doing this because you don't think there is another option . 

[00:55:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah, because where do they go, right? everything that you have in this life is afforded to you based on your parents wealth, right? fair enough, If you didn't have a lot of money and you knew that you could get by on very little then maybe you could step out into the world and go do you know what i'll be fine because I know how to get by on very little but when you live this really rich privileged lifestyle where your family spends tens of thousands of dollars potentially in a day you think if I step out this door and I have nothing 

[00:55:52] Adam Cox: How do I fend for myself?

[00:55:54] Kyle Risi: How do I fend for myself in any way, right? how do you exist? So I can get it that way. They don't have a sense of like, [00:56:00] how you can get by without your parents support. And they're using that as leverage to kind of, yeah, control them. 

[00:56:06] Adam Cox: Yeah, absolutely. It's all about control. Eric's also heard crying heavily on the tapes, and he's distraught.

[00:56:12] He says that he loves his parents, particularly his father. which experts say that victims of Sexual abuse from family members can sometimes feel these complicated feelings when it comes to that kind of dynamic. And, again, it just doesn't sound to me, when you hear that, he hates his father, I don't know, it's really complicated to understand, I think, in terms of how Eric actually feels about his parents.

[00:56:36] And most importantly, which I think is telling, the Doctor is heard laughing at times on the tape, he seems relaxed, therefore doesn't seem like he's in fear of his life. which is what he claims to be, when he testifies. And to be fair, the Next time he sees the brothers is actually at their trial.

[00:56:51] He makes no attempt to have a follow up session, given the severity of the situation. Really? Wow. So this tape is a crucial piece of evidence for people [00:57:00] who defend the brothers, say it should not be relied upon, because the conversation is engineered by the doctor and he fails as his role as a therapist.

[00:57:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah, but I mean, I get that there is a side of it where he is trying to coerce them into giving over information, but he's not coercing them to give false information. I think he's just trying to edge out information from them. And I think people are clever enough to read between the lines and see,see past kind of the way that he's asking these questions or what he's trying to orchestrate and just look at the facts of that,what being said.

[00:57:31] . They're still guilty. It's still an admission of guilt. Whether or not there is, another layer to it based on, what the Doctor's trying to get out of it. People can separate the two, is what I'm saying. 

[00:57:40] Adam Cox: Yeah, I so at the second trial, the brothers are both found guilty of first degree murder in 1996 and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Initially, Lyle and Eric were kept apart in different prisons for around 22 years. They kept in touch by writing letters back and forth, even playing a chess match via mail, which must have been [00:58:00] How does that work?

[00:58:00] I'm guessing you're just Very slow, isn't it? Yeah, like one move per letter? 

[00:58:04] Kyle Risi: Uh huh. And what if,you're playing this game and they're mailing back and forth and then someone comes into the cell, accidentally knocks over the chess board and you're like, oh, 

[00:58:12] , I can't imagine, would they have 

[00:58:13] Adam Cox: done that? Or would they have like drawn a little diagram on their letter? 

[00:58:17] Kyle Risi: reckon they're just playing the game? 

[00:58:19] Adam Cox: Via mail, that's what I thought. 

[00:58:20] Kyle Risi: But each time they've got to draw a new chessboard and relay the pieces every time one piece moves.

[00:58:25] Adam Cox: That would be, I mean, this must have lasted 

[00:58:26] Kyle Risi: Yeah, what if you write the whole letter, and then the bottom you draw your chessboard? Chess piece, or your chess setup, and then you go, Oh, damn it! I put the piece in the wrong place! You want to redo your move, but then you've got to write the whole letter again.

[00:58:38] Adam Cox: Perhaps they're mailing a couple of times a week, but then maybe there's no real update. So just like, um, Hi Eric, uh, Queen to L7 or whatever. 

[00:58:47] Kyle Risi: It is quite a clever way of doing it though, because you get to spend a lot of time really pondering. In between letters about what your next move will be and you can plan ahead.

[00:58:56] It's a good way of kind of planning strategically. 

[00:58:58] Adam Cox: According to a People [00:59:00] Magazine article, Lyle had spent some of his time lifting weights, playing basketball, caring for a pet lizard. He also served as the president of the inmate government and led a support group for victims of sexual abuse .

[00:59:12] . In 2018, Lyle was transferred to the same prison that his brother Eric was at, so they could have a chance to, be closer together.

[00:59:20] Adam Cox: So they weren't in the same cells, but I guess during recreation time they could catch up and stuff like that . It also seems that they have rehabilitated, for one thing, they have wives. Lyle is on his second marriage, to be fair, to a woman called Rebecca Sneed.

[00:59:33] She says that they're not allowed conjugal conjungual visits. Con con conjunial? What is it? Conjunial? Congenial? Conjun conjugal? Conj con con Congential? They're not allowed to have sex. Damn it! And Eric, he married Tammy Ruth back in 1999, They got married in a prison waiting room, and their wedding cake was a Twinkie.

[00:59:57] Kyle Risi: [01:00:00] Love it! 

[01:00:01] Adam Cox: Which I guess is the best you can get. 

[01:00:04] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's it. Hey Prison Board, we're getting married. Could you possibly spare like a cake? And we're thinking maybe a five tier cake, chocolate double ganache, like with sprinkles on top and like really elegant, like the whole shebang.

[01:00:17] we don't really have budget for that. Okay, how about we negotiate down to three tiers? And like, um, yeah, I still don't think the budget is going to crack to that. okay, two tiers? one tier? Best we can do is a Twinkie. I'll take it. Okay, yeah, I'll take it!

[01:00:32] Adam Cox: Have you ever had a Twinkie? They're disgusting. No offence, America. 

[01:00:35] Kyle Risi: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The reason why it's disgusting, Adam, and I guarantee you, is because when you have a Twinkie in the UK, They are dry because they've come all the way from America, but when you get them when they're moist and they're juicy Sometimes you get cream on one end and chocolate on the other end when they're really juicy and moist Yeah, 

[01:00:55] Adam Cox: but it tastes so fake 

[01:00:57] Kyle Risi: I don't know. It just tastes like sponge. It's really [01:01:00] good. 

[01:01:00] Adam Cox: No Don't get me wrong, I love some Reese's Pieces and some peanut butter M& M's.

[01:01:04] Kyle Risi: That's not chocolate. That guy who invented Hershey's was supposed to be on the Titanic, he could have died on that ship. Otherwise we Do you know why they call them Hershey's Kisses? It's because when the, machine is pumping them out and then it hits the thing and then pulls the chocolate away, it sounds like a little kiss.

[01:01:23] The machine sounds like a kiss, yeah. 

[01:01:26] Adam Cox: No one would know that though, because no one's around the machines. 

[01:01:28] Kyle Risi: That's true. 

[01:01:29] Adam Cox: Eric has now turned to God and is now sharing the Gospel with fellow inmates. So it's interesting to hear he is teaching others about God's love for people, something he perhaps didn't get to have from his own parents. Like many others in their situation, the Menendez brothers have filed multiple appeals, all of which have been denied, and so without newer evidence, it's difficult for a retrial to be granted.

[01:01:50] But, in recent years, there been some developments. In 2023, a letter written by Eric to his cousin Andy in December [01:02:00] 1988, well before the murders, has surfaced. Andy was the cousin who Eric had confided in as a child about, was it normal for fathers and sons to do what they do.

[01:02:10] And Andy was like, no way. And in this letter, Eric confides and says,

[01:02:14] I've been trying to avoid Dad. It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now. He's so overweight, but I can't stand to see him. I never know when it's going to happen, and it's driving me crazy every night. I say to myself, I think he might come in. I need to put it out of my mind.

[01:02:31] I know what you said before, but I'm afraid you just don't know Dad like I do. He's crazy. He warned me about 100 times about telling anyone, especially Lyle. So Am I serious with this? I don't know. I'll make it through this. I can handle it. . What? So he had put this down in writing and a letter from, I think several months before the murder.

[01:02:52] Kyle Risi: God, and he was still coming into his room. 

[01:02:54] So Andy passed away in 2003 from an accidental overdose of sleeping pills.

[01:02:59] Adam Cox: [01:03:00] Shit, okay. 

[01:03:00] Kyle Risi: Why did he not come forward with that letter then if he knew he had it? Did he forget that he had it? 

[01:03:04] Adam Cox: so his mother believes that keeping the secret may have contributed to his death, Andy's death, because he found it unimaginable. I guess he had this guilt. and so she only found the letter going through some of his stuff back in 2023, and that's how it came up.

[01:03:19] some argue, oh, could, Eric have then wrote the letter after the murders to try and, plant some evidence about it before. but Eric's auntie, the mother of Andy, is like, I don't think so. I, believe Eric. Because of what's happened to her son, the way that, , he dealt with Eric being in prison. so now there's letters out in the open, what happens? we don't actually know.

[01:03:39] , this came out last year. Nothing has really been talked about. Really, 

[01:03:42] Kyle Risi: this is up to date! 

[01:03:43] Adam Cox: as up to date as it could be. 

[01:03:45] Kyle Risi: they, so what's happening then? So where are we at?

[01:03:48] Adam Cox: that's the thing. , that's not all. last year there was a report from a man named Roy Rosello, he was a former member of a Latin boy band called Menudo that Jose Menendez signed with RCA [01:04:00] Records. He's come forward with allegations that Jose drugged and assaulted him when he was 14 years old.

[01:04:05] Okay, 

[01:04:06] He's got the skin in 

[01:04:07] Kyle Risi: the game in terms of like connection with the brothers. He's come forward and said he molested me as well. 

[01:04:11] Adam Cox: Exactly. It proves that Jose was a sexual predator and demonstrates that Lyle and Eric were not lying. but there's no clear update on exactly what's happening with both these new pieces of information.

[01:04:22] Sure. So I don't know if that is spurring things on and the case is going to be reopened. We've got the new TV show that's coming out. So I think it's going to get a whole lot more focus. 

[01:04:32] Kyle Risi: Yes. So that's really interesting because, at a criminal trial, you have to obviously prove without reasonable doubt whether or not , 

[01:04:39] they did this. Yeah. which of course they did do it, but their reasons and motivations behind it. But the thing is, if you went to a civil trial, you would just have to prove, is he more likely, They're not to have molested the boys. Yeah in terms of putting the father on trial basically put the father on trial Even though he's dead.

[01:04:58] Can you do that? [01:05:00] No, 

[01:05:00] Adam Cox: I don't think you 

[01:05:00] Kyle Risi: So you guess you can just pardon them But the thing is that they did do it So they probably get off with time served because they've been in prison all this time then they'll be like you've served X amount and the Penalty for manslaughter, which is what will downgrade your charges to, means that you will serve, let's say, 10 years, but you've already served 15 years, so you get out for time served.

[01:05:21] Adam Cox: I think that could be something like that. I don't know if it would be manslaughter or it would be a different degree of murder, not first degree. I think there was another level that they could potentially use. Yeah, 

[01:05:30] Kyle Risi: I don't know what it would be, because at the end of the day, 

[01:05:32] Adam Cox: motive, I guess, 

[01:05:33] Kyle Risi: the biggest issue I have with this, though, is the killing their mother, because they say that killing mum was a mercy killing.

[01:05:41] Adam Cox: no, that's what Dr. Oziel says, not what they say necessarily. 

[01:05:45] Kyle Risi: But then their mother wasn't the one molesting them. 

[01:05:47] Adam Cox: she was washing them, and she was Sure, washing them, but And she made, I think Lyle 

[01:05:53] touch her. And so, I don't know. She knew about it. She was complicit.

[01:05:57] You could 

[01:05:58] Kyle Risi: argue, though, as you mentioned [01:06:00] earlier on, The older brother was molesting the younger brother because of what he was taught from his father, and you said that was quite common. Could the same not be said for the mother, though? She was in an abusive marriage, he may have been taking advantage of her, he may have been forcing himself on her.

[01:06:16] She may have a very unhealthy attitude towards sex and what's appropriate and what's not. could she be just as much a victim as them? 

[01:06:24] Adam Cox: She certainly would, sounds like she wasn't in a good state of mind. I don't know if that's justification, but maybe it's an explanation.

[01:06:31] So yeah, we've got the new TV show coming out. There's also been various different, documentaries and other sort of TV movie type shows. Even Courtney Love played Kitty in one of them, a few years back. so it's been documented.

[01:06:42] Couldn't be love 

[01:06:43] Kyle Risi: of all people though. 

[01:06:44] Adam Cox: Yeah. 

[01:06:44] Kyle Risi: Wow. 

[01:06:45] Adam Cox: So at this point in time, the Menendez brothers, they've been in prison for about 33 years. Some people believe they deserve to stay there, feeling their crimes were too brutal to forgive. And I do agree, two wrongs don't make a right. Should they have served time and have some punishment for what they did?

[01:06:59] Probably [01:07:00] yes. Particularly how violent those deaths were. Others, however, argue that given the abuse that they endured, this was a genuine reason that they were scared for their life and they acted out of desperation. we've seen it before with Lorena Bobbitt and Gypsy Rose, two people who did things, but you had sympathy for them because of the that they had received .

[01:07:18] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly. For sure.

[01:07:20] Adam Cox: A lot of their family believe they should be freed now, and they've served their time. some of the family keep in touch, and so there seems like there's no grudge, which, suggests that Jose and Kitty were kind of pieces of shit. Mm hmm. So it's a very complicated, messy situation, and it's hard to come down firmly on one side or the other.

[01:07:37] Maybe they deserve another trial with all the evidence on the table and letting a new jury decide. Perhaps that's the fairest thing. And so yeah, that is the story of the Menendez murders and Eric and Lyle Menendez. 

[01:07:48] Kyle Risi: Wow, who knew that it was that mental?

[01:07:54] I just thought they watched a television show, they were greedy rich kids, and they decided to go and murder their dad, who [01:08:00] was presumably innocent of everything. 

[01:08:02] Adam Cox: Well, that's what the prosecution said. They thought, like, you were inspired by this TV show and that's why you did what you did. And they were like, no, we watched it.

[01:08:11] And it had some good ideas, 

[01:08:13] Kyle Risi: but they were legitimately good ideas, right? Perfect for our situation. Yeah, 

[01:08:17] Adam Cox: we could relate. 

[01:08:18] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Shit. Yeah. 

[01:08:20] Well, shall we run the outro? yeah, sure, let's do 

[01:08:24] Adam Cox: it. And that's it for another episode of The Compendium. If you enjoyed today's episode, please follow us on your favourite podcast app.

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[01:08:47] Until then, remember, what we see on the surface is rarely the full truth. Sometimes the perpetrator can also be the victim. Until next week. See you later. [01:09:00]