The Lindbergh Baby: The Kidnapping of Americas Most Beloved Baby

In this episode of the Compendium, we I tell Adam about the haunting story of the Lindbergh Baby, a kidnapping that shocked America. We’ll guide you through the mysterious events surrounding the Lindbergh kidnapping, from the chilling ransom note to the nationwide search for answers. Discover how Charles Lindbergh’s fame turned this case into a media frenzy and a dark chapter in American history.

We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:

1. “The Lindbergh Case” by Jim Fisher
2. “Crime of the Century” by Gregory Ahlgren and Stephen Monier
3. “Lindbergh” by A. Scott Berg
4. “The Lindbergh Baby Kidnapping” FBI.gov
5. “The Dark Corners of the Lindbergh Kidnapping” by Michael Melsky

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Credits:

• Hosts: Kyle Risi & Adam Cox
• Intro and Outro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin
• All the Latest Things Intro: Clowns by Giulio Fazio

Chapters

• 0:00 Sneak peak
• 0:59 Welcome to The Compendium
• 1:40 Topic of the week
• 5:06 All the latest things
• 13:59 Topic of the week
• 1:18:30 Outro

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: As we know today, when a crime like this happens, the parents are usually the number one most likely suspect, right? But instead of investigating Charles Lindbergh, they decide that they need someone to steer the investigation, and so, with no background in law enforcement, they allow Charles Lindbergh himself to actually run the entire operation.

[00:00:24] Adam: What? That's so stupid, isn't it? So like this guy is a pilot. Yeah. He has no, I don't know, detective skills. Nope. Why would they ever think that was a good idea [00:01:00]

[00:01:01] Kyle Risi: Welcome to the compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. We're a weekly variety podcast where each week I tell Adam Cox all about a topic I think you'll find both fascinating and intriguing. We dive into stories pulled from the darker corners of true crime, the annuls of your old unread history books, and the who's who of extraordinary people.

[00:01:20] We give you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. I'm of course your ringmaster this week, Kyle Reesey. 

[00:01:29] Adam: And I'm your Lion Tamer this week, Adam Cox.

[00:01:32] You mean a kiddie tamer? A kiddie tamer? No, it's a full grown lion. 

[00:01:36] Kyle Risi: Keith is. 

[00:01:37] Adam: In 

[00:01:37] Kyle Risi: his imagination, he is. I would say he is. Today's compendium, we are diving into an assembly of clues, ransom notes, and a high flying mystery that gripped the nation. 

[00:01:48] Adam: Interesting. Um, yeah, but I've got no clues. 

[00:01:52] Kyle Risi: Adam, picture this. One of America's most beloved heroes, celebrated, admired, a symbol of hope, [00:02:00] suddenly finds himself at the heart of a tragedy so profound it brings the entire nation to a standstill. What unfolds next is a mystery layered with all the elements of a gripping drama.

[00:02:11] It's got fame, it's got fortune, it's got ransom notes, a devastating loss, and a trial so controversial, people are still debating it nearly a century later. Today, we are diving into the chilling tale of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. 

[00:02:27] Adam: What do you know of this story? Well, Kyle, it might surprise you that I know absolutely nothing. Nothing at all? Nothing. The Lindbergh baby. 

[00:02:36] Kyle Risi: So Adam, in 1932, Charles Lindbergh, A famed aviator who became a national icon after flying solo across the Atlantic faced a nightmare beyond imagination. His 20 month old son was snatched from his crib in the family home and the kidnappers left behind a ransom note, resulting in a nationwide manhunt and a media frenzy unlike anything the country had ever seen.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] After the ransom was paid, was devastating because the baby's lifeless body was discovered months later. And this investigation led to the arrest of a German national by the name of Bruno Hauptmann, who was eventually convicted and executed by electric chair.

[00:03:17] But here's the twist. Even now, questions linger about whether or not they convicted the right man or did they condemn an innocent man to death because the story is the first time that new emerging technologies like radio and film come together to profoundly impact public opinion. Something that we see all the time today in real major stories of the 21st century.

[00:03:43] So questions do arise whether or not there was just pressure to convict this guy. And in fact, he was completely innocent altogether. 

[00:03:50] Adam: This happens all the time, I swear. Police feel like they need to, yeah, find someone because there's this pressure from the public, to convict someone.

[00:03:59] Kyle Risi: Yeah, [00:04:00] most famously from the episodes that we covered. amanda Knox was in a similar situation where the lead investigator was obviously under international pressure from all the different countries media . It resulted in Amanda Knox being convicted of murdering her flatmate. Yeah, it happens all the time.

[00:04:17] But with this story, The mystery continues to fascinate, disturb, and haunt those who dare to explore it even today. There are like a whole team of internet sleuths that still are captivated by the story. Almost like a hundred years later. Almost a hundred years later, yeah. So today we're going to dive into the life of Charles Lindbergh, a figure who we've discussed before on this show.

[00:04:40] I'll explore how this tragic story unfolded. We'll explore the frantic manhunt and reveal the shocking mistakes that were made by the investigation team. We'll also examine the questionable evidence and share some of the earliest historical media coverage of this story.

[00:04:57] So, a bit of history, which I think is something [00:05:00] to be marveled at. Yeah, it's one of the first earliest examples of it. And then finally, we will ask the chilling question.

[00:05:06] Did they execute the wrong man? 

[00:05:08] Adam: I'm gonna go with yes. I think that sums it up. See, do you know what? I think that they got the right man. Oh right, okay. Yeah, for sure. But, before we kick off today's episode, it's time for 

[00:05:18] All the Latest Things.

[00:05:19] Kyle Risi: This is a little segment of our show where increasingly Adam tells us all about the weird and wonderful ways strange men can smuggle small animals in their pants to any destination that they choose.

[00:05:32] So Adam, what strange treasure have you dug up this week? 

[00:05:37] Adam: No, mine is a news story which made me sad. It's about a couple of same sex penguins in Australia. 

[00:05:44] Kyle Risi: Oh no, has one of them died? 

[00:05:47] Adam: Yeah. 

[00:05:48] Kyle Risi: Oh, I figured this day would come. 

[00:05:51] Adam: They, um, well, these couple, um, they're in the Sydney Zoo, I think. One's called Magic and one's called Sven. 

[00:05:57] Kyle Risi: Oh, Sven and Magic. You know which one [00:06:00] loves the show tunes, right? It's clearly Magic. 

[00:06:03] Adam: Well, they got together or they rose to fame back in 2018 when, they started I don't know, going out. Same sexing? Yeah. and I think what people, or the reason they got in the news was because they started to raise, these young. Babies. Mm-Hmm. within the zoo.

[00:06:17] Yeah. And taking care of them. Looking after the eggs. 

[00:06:19] Kyle Risi: Oh, a little penguin adoption. 

[00:06:21] Adam: Yeah. And so they were raising these chicks and I think they, yeah, they were all over the news at the time. And I think even like at Mardi Gras, there was like these floats and all this celebration of these gay penguins. They meant a lot to the people of Sydney. 

[00:06:33] Kyle Risi: Mm-Hmm. . That's cute. 

[00:06:35] Adam: Yeah. But recently, just before Sven's 12th birthday, he wasn't feeling too good and his health rapidly deteriorated and the aquarium's veterinary team made the difficult decision to put him down.

[00:06:50] Kyle Risi: Oh, he, so he didn't die, like he just got really ill, sick. 

[00:06:53] Adam: Yeah, he got sick. It's like 

[00:06:54] Kyle Risi: grandma, right? Like she got a bit sick, she got a little bit better, but then she [00:07:00] died. 

[00:07:00] Adam: But the, yeah, so what happened is they put Sven to sleep and then I think what happens in the wild if a penguin Doesn't find their mate or get that closure. They're constantly looking for them. So they showed Sven to Magic so that he could mourn and understand that he wasn't gonna start looking for him all over the place. How did he react? This is the bit that's slightly heartwarming. He started singing.

[00:07:24] Heartwarming? Yeah, he started singing. You mean that's sad, not heartwarming. Like, 

[00:07:29] Kyle Risi: aw, he's singing about his dead boyfriend. 

[00:07:32] Adam: What I meant was like, this is love that he was showing. Mm hmm. For. Yeah, his other half. So he starts singing and then all the other penguins started to sing as well.

[00:07:40] Oh! 

[00:07:41] Adam: There's a little chorus of singing. 

[00:07:43] Kyle Risi: I'm speechless. Really? So they were all mourning together. Do they, what about their adoptee children that they had? I don't know. 

[00:07:51] Adam: I don't 

[00:07:52] Kyle Risi: know 

[00:07:52] Adam: if they moved away. 

[00:07:53] Kyle Risi: No idea. They're not talking to Sven because at one time, he like, grounded him for not taking out the trash [00:08:00] bag.

[00:08:00] Yeah, these things happen, right? 

[00:08:01] Adam: Things happen. But the team at the zoo We're like, we've never seen this kind of behavior before. So it's something quite special to witness. And apparently they're all getting quite teary. Like seeing all these penguins having this song. Morning. 

[00:08:14] Kyle Risi: That is really adorable.

[00:08:15] And really sad because that closes that chapter. Because I've known about these gay penguins. I'm not sure if there's other gay penguins. So, what's Magic gonna do now? Is he gonna find himself a new boyfriend, or? 

[00:08:26] Adam: Well, Magic is now entering his first breeding season without his partner, but he's You mean as a 

[00:08:30] Kyle Risi: single gay man? As a 

[00:08:31] Adam: single gay man on the lookout for a new husband, maybe. I don't know. What if he, 

[00:08:37] Kyle Risi: what if he like, 

[00:08:37] Adam: changes? 

[00:08:38] Kyle Risi: What if he just loved Sven so much that it wasn't about him being like, really hung. It was more about like, Sven, because he's such a 

[00:08:47] Adam: lovable man. Well, magic's been seen collecting pebbles for a nest, which keepers say is a promising sign that he's perhaps looking to move on and, you know, raise some new children. This year. But [00:09:00] yeah, Paws Fan and Magic. Yeah. That's my, that's my thing this week. No smuggling. 

[00:09:05] Kyle Risi: No smuggling. So Adam, mine's also an animal related story. Uh huh. 

[00:09:09] So did you know that there is a dog that lived between 6, 000 and 11, 000 years ago? Oh yeah, that one. Yeah, that one, that particular dog, who is still alive today. No. Not as a pet, but as a living dog. evolving cancer that has managed to evolve and spread from dog to dog. 

[00:09:31] Adam: So how has that happened? So this dog has turned into a cancer and now leeching and living off other dogs? 

[00:09:37] Kyle Risi: Exactly. Really? So this is one of the strangest things about the biological world. And it all started thousands of years ago when a dog got cancer.

[00:09:45] Now, what is really unusual here Is that cancer isn't really something that can spread from organism to organism, or in this case from dog to dog. Because normally our bodies are pretty good at identifying foreign cells from like another organism and then just completely [00:10:00] destroying them.

[00:10:00] That's why if you ever get an organ transplant, for example, people need to take kind of special medications to prevent our bodies from rejecting the new organ. But in this case, something bizarre has happened. The cancer has found a way to jump between dogs and this same cancerous organism that evolved one time in a dog almost 11, 000 years ago has evolved into kind of like a disease that itself is now its own living entity. 

[00:10:26] So imagine that a disease that. You can catch as a dog just by coming into contact with another dog that has it. Essentially, what it is genetically is the living cancer cells of another dog that lived 11, 000 years ago. It's the same dog. 

[00:10:41] Adam: Okay. So it's still the same. It hasn't mutated anymore since then. 

[00:10:45] Kyle Risi: Very little. That's the crazy thing. So this cancer is known as canine transmissible venereal tumour, or as they call it, CTVT. But might as well just be CCTV. And it's evolved to become this standalone organism with [00:11:00] its own survival strategies. And what's even more fascinating is that while the cancer cells still carry the original dog from thousands of years ago, it's not really evolved too much more since then. So it's quite stable as a cancer. 

[00:11:14] Adam: So it's kind of like 11, 000 year old. Cancer. 

[00:11:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah, isn't that weird? So CCTV typically spreads through like sexual contact between dogs like humping each other, you know, I People probably got the idea.

[00:11:26] Yeah, but they didn't see the hand gesture though. That was just for your benefit, Thanks, and yeah, and the cancer cells have managed to survive and spread over time. And what is wild, Adam, is that every dog that is alive today with this cancer originated from that one single dog that lived all hitching a ride. 

[00:11:44] Adam: I imagine there's other diseases that kind of produce like this, right? Or is this like one of the only ones that we know that's 11, 000 years old? 

[00:11:51] Kyle Risi: so It is extremely rare for this to happen, but there are eight other known types of this kind of cancer that has managed to mutate from other different organisms and things like [00:12:00] that. So it, there's a few out there, but it's extremely rare for this to happen. And in humans 

[00:12:05] Adam: as well, 

[00:12:06] Kyle Risi: or? I don't know.

[00:12:07] I don't know. I think there is. I have a feeling that maybe, is it the, what's the HPV virus? Is that something similar? I don't know.

[00:12:16] Adam: I was just thinking if, you could get 11, 000 year old cancer now as a human, and it would be from Charon, back in, I don't know.

[00:12:23] Kyle Risi: I doubt that ever existed back then. 

[00:12:25] Adam: 9000 

[00:12:26] Kyle Risi: BC. Possibly. I mean, this has shown that it's possible. So, and that could emerge at any time. A new one could emerge. Feels like 

[00:12:32] Adam: sci fi, that is. It does. that's something that you see in a sci fi movie with this mutation. 

[00:12:37] Kyle Risi: So basically this is one of those stories that just make you realize how dramatically weird life on Earth actually is. Yeah. And how even cells from a dog that is long dead thousands of years ago can technically, Adam, Become immortal? Is that crazy? 

[00:12:52] Adam: It's a little bit of a stretch, immortal though. 

[00:12:54] Kyle Risi: Why? It's still the same organism. So technically it is.

[00:12:58] Is it the oldest living thing [00:13:00] alive? Yeah, must be. But then what constitutes something being alive? So get, get this when you were a baby. huh. None of the cells that you had in your body that you were born with are inside your body today.

[00:13:15] So are you still Adam that you were born as? I see what you're saying. Do you know what I mean? And at the same time as well, just imagine like, me and you could slowly, atom by atom, take one cell from your body, swap it with one of mine, and slowly we do that backwards and forwards, billions and billions and billions of times.

[00:13:36] At what point do you become me and I become you? Is it when 51 percent of our atoms, are exchanged, that I am you and you are me. 

[00:13:45] Adam: I reckon the point I become you is when I start offending everyone. I'm not, 

[00:13:50] Kyle Risi: I'm not 

[00:13:51] Adam: like that 

[00:13:52] Kyle Risi: at all. How dare you? How dare you? I'm just a truth speaker.

[00:13:57] Anyway, that's all my latest things for this [00:14:00] week. Should we get on with the Limbo Baby? Yes, let's do it.

[00:14:03] So Adam, the Lindbergh baby. So to start off with, the Lindbergh baby was this huge moment in the 20th century because it involved one of the most beloved people of the time. A man called Charles Lindbergh, 

[00:14:19] He was the celebrated pilot who at just the age of 25, Was the first person to embark on a solo non stop trip from New York to Paris and Charles is actually a bit of a friend of the podcast because if you remember from our episode on Amelia Earhart Charles was Amelia's Inspiration to be the first woman to try and do the same thing and make that journey and as we discussed allegedly ended up with her being lost somewhere in the Pacific, being caught up by a bunch of coconut crabs. I say allegedly, because that's what I honestly believe happened.

[00:14:54] Adam: I think you believed it as well, 

[00:14:55] Kyle Risi: right? 

[00:14:55] Adam: Yeah, but based on the evidence, because nothing was found of her, ever. No, they did find some 

[00:14:59] Kyle Risi: bones [00:15:00] and shit, but yeah, only one thing can pick those bones dry, right? And that's got to be a crab. 

[00:15:04] Adam: Yeah, or some kind of animal for sure. But if it was the only thing around, crabs, then 

[00:15:09] yeah, why not? 

[00:15:09] Kyle Risi: Now, Following Charles solo flight, he was honoured with all sorts of awards, like the Medal of Freedom, the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Legion of Honour, and he was even named Times Man of the Year.

[00:15:21] So he's a pretty big deal. But crossing the Atlantic just wasn't enough for him. One thing in particular was that he was motivated by his sister in law, a woman called Elizabeth Marrow, who had suffered from a weakened heart due to a rhythmic fever.

[00:15:37] So he co created the first perfusion pump, which was a device that was super, super powerful. important during organ transplants and stuff. It keeps the blood kind of oxygenated while they can go in and do their operation and whatever they need to do. 

[00:15:52] And he created that, or at least funded it? Or how did he? No, he co created it with another doctor. Interesting. 

[00:15:58] Adam: Yeah, so 

[00:15:58] Kyle Risi: He was a [00:16:00] pretty extraordinary 

[00:16:00] Adam: guy. Yeah. That's interesting because it's like Roald Dahl when he co created, I can't remember what it was, but another machine to help his son at the time 

[00:16:07] Kyle Risi: like a health machine. Yeah, he did that as well. Interesting. Yeah. 

[00:16:10] So around about this time in 1929, Charles marries his fiancee Anne Marrow. And in 1930 together, they welcome their first child into the world. And it's a baby boy, and they name him Charles Lindbergh. Junior. Okay. So following this, in an attempt to maintain a degree of privacy away from the limelight, 'cause there's huge celebrities at this time.

[00:16:31] The Lindbergh's, they moved to a more isolated area, specifically East Amwell in New Jersey. 

[00:16:36] Now on March the first, 1932, the baby's nurse, went to check on their 20 month, year old baby Charles Jr. And he was supposed to be in his crib, but when she entered the room, he wasn't there. She thought that maybe Charles was with his mother, but when she went to go check, she was in the bathtub.

[00:16:55] So she went down to see if Charles had maybe picked up the baby. When she saw that [00:17:00] he wasn't with her, Charles then runs up to the baby's room, he sees a window is wide open, the baby is gone, and a note has been left on the windowsill. 

[00:17:09] Adam: So this, is on the first floor. Is it of their house or apartment or whatever? Well, I would 

[00:17:14] Kyle Risi: say second floor. Second floor. So not the ground floor. Yeah, the, the first floor. I think in American, the uk, they say them differently, right? Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the, it's the second floor. Yeah. It's not on, it's not on ground level. Put it that way. So someone's climbed up. You needed a 

[00:17:26] Adam: ladder basically to get up to the water. Or a tree. 

[00:17:29] Kyle Risi: Or a tree. 

[00:17:30] Adam: Okay. So did people know, I guess that he lived there? Because are they targeting him specifically? 

[00:17:36] Kyle Risi: He's been targeted specifically. Let's put it there. Yeah. Okay, like they know where he lives. He hasn't gone hiding He's just gone to a more secluded area for a bit more privacy because he's such a big celeb, right? Mm hmm over in the city in New York. He's just hounded by press all the time, 

[00:17:50] Adam: right? Okay, 

[00:17:50] Kyle Risi: so he just kind of like well, I'm having a baby Let's go and be a bit more isolated away so we can just get on with our lives

[00:17:58] So the note itself was written in [00:18:00] broken English, but interestingly, it contained two interlocked blue circles, kind of like a Venn diagram around a red circle with a hole punched through it. And then there were also two holes punched on the opposite sides of the blue circles, making kind of the Venn diagram.

[00:18:15] And this symbol is essentially the signature that the kidnapper would then use to sign future letters that he would send to the Lindberghs during this entire case. So to give you an indication of how weird this symbol looks, it's pretty much this. 

[00:18:29] Adam: Okay. So that is, it's not like, Oh, from Ralph or initials that is cryptic. 

[00:18:34] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And it looks, it's like almost a bit, something like from the Zodiac killer. 

[00:18:39] Adam: That's what I was just thinking. It is that kind of like sign. It's like an eyeball, but in between two circles.

[00:18:44] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And those black holes are all holes punched through the actual letter itself. Is this some kind of like weird cult? Um, I see where you would get those vibes from, I just think they wanted a very specific kind of mark to mark these letters with so [00:19:00] that when they send future letters you can then be confident that it's from the kidnapper.

[00:19:05] Right, and not someone else, okay. But the thing is though, as sophisticated as this approach was, Let's read the letter because it's terrible. 

[00:19:13] Adam: Okay. 

[00:19:14] Kyle Risi: So it says, Dear Sir, have 50, 000 ready, spell R E D Y. So by the way, I'm going to paraphrase this because the spellings are just horrendous because this person is an illiterate idiot.

[00:19:27] So he says have 50, 000 ready, 25, 000 in 20 bills, Specific $15,000 in $10 bills and $10,000 in $5 bills. After two to four days, we will inform you where to deliver the Monie. We warn you for making public any ding or for notify police. The child is in gut health. So as you've already guessed, English wasn't obviously this kidnapper's first language.

[00:19:55] Adam: Oh, do we know that for sure. I just thought maybe they didn't go to school because maybe [00:20:00] that wasn't the opportunity 

[00:20:01] Kyle Risi: Well, I mean what they think based on the misspellings, is they think that maybe he is a German national Okay.

[00:20:08] Yeah. Already they've gone to that. Yeah. and also remember this is a time when there were loads of immigrants coming from Europe and stuff. So it could have just been like an uneducated person or it could have been a foreign national. Yeah.

[00:20:20] Okay. 

[00:20:20] So Charles, after reading the letter, he grabs his shotgun, he runs outside to see if the person who had left the note was still there, all he finds is a set of footprints under the window, a broken ladder leaning up against the wall, and a baby's blanket. And that's it. Baby Lindbergh had been kidnapped. 

[00:20:36] So the family alert the police and soon they descend on the house where they start dusting for fingerprints in the room and on the ladder and they just find nothing.

[00:20:43] As for the footprints under the window, they discovered that the kidnapper had actually worn something on the bottom of his shoes to try and kind of like make identifying the shoes impossible. 

[00:20:53] All they could kind of get was just a general sense of the size. of the man's footprints, but like there [00:21:00] was no treads or any markings on the bottom of the sole.

[00:21:03] So very clever what he's done there. 

[00:21:05] Adam: Yeah, that's interesting that they would have thought to do that because even now I don't feel like people would. Do that we don't hear that as much 

[00:21:12] Kyle Risi: exactly and it makes you also question when you consider the spelling in the letter and how badly Worded it is, but they're very sophisticated Venn diagram symbol on there and the foresight to cover your tracks Yeah, maybe it's a red herring the letter being written in such bad English. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:21:32] Adam: Yeah, or he's just a smart German. 

[00:21:34] Kyle Risi: A smart German. And And also, like I said, it's very clear from handwriting analysis that the note was written by a single person. However, based on some of the misspellings, they believe that this was a guy of German origin.

[00:21:44] One of the biggest clues at the scene, though, and one that will become key throughout the entire trial, was a broken ladder the kidnapper left outside the window. What made this ladder so interesting is that it was very clearly a makeshift ladder and someone had cobbled it together using [00:22:00] various pieces of wood.

[00:22:00] But the wood all seemed to come from the same source. It was the same type of wood. And the investigators figured that if they could find out where the wood was taken from, it might lead them to their suspect. 

[00:22:12] Adam: Right. Okay. So a makeshift ladder. 

[00:22:14] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So they are just like, okay, we need a ladder. 

[00:22:17] Adam: Get some wood and then cut it up and put it together.

[00:22:19] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so they can find something that's been deconstructed or ripped apart that's made from wood. They'll be like, someone took this wood and made a ladder. Who did that?

[00:22:30] So because the crime obviously involved one of the biggest celebrities of the time, it drew huge attention from the media. When news got back to the president, he insisted that he be kept informed of any developments in this case. And even though the kidnapping was technically a state crime, Roosevelt, the president, decided that he would put it under kind of federal jurisdiction, and he instructed the FBI to provide state police with any assistance they could get. That they needed if they wanted it. At this point they were like, no, it's fine. We can handle it on our own, but soon they'll get [00:23:00] involved. 

[00:23:00] So pretty quickly, this has become a huge investigation reaching up to the federal level because of how famous he was.

[00:23:06] Adam: Yeah. That's pretty unusual for that to happen, right? 

[00:23:09] Kyle Risi: Very unusual, yeah. It's because the president was just so invested in the story and as the investigation got underway the lack of any leads resulted in the New Jersey police deciding to offer a 25, 000 reward for any information that might lead to the recovery of the baby. So they issued this into the news and then soon it became an international story. Here is a clip from one of the first British broadcasts of this story from across the pond. So this just goes to show you how far reaching this story was. 

[00:23:40] Audio: These are the only motion pictures of Charles Augustus Lindbergh, and they were specially shown in America to aid in his recovery.

[00:23:47] He was 20 months old when he was stolen away at night from this window. The whole country was aroused by the terrible crime, and an intensive search was carried out by day and night. 

[00:23:56] Kyle Risi: So that's one of the very first kind of news clippings of the story [00:24:00] to kind of start going global. So it was massive, and that was over in the UK.

[00:24:03] So it gives you that sense of just how big the story was.

[00:24:06] So soon after the police are alerted, the Lindbergh house is overrun with investigators, and they're all patrolling the area. They're searching for clues. Unfortunately, they end up destroying a lot of the evidence in the process. And today, in the era of like true crime, We know how crucial it is to protect.

[00:24:23] a crime scene. Yeah. And this case has actually become one of the earliest examples of what happens when that doesn't happen. 

[00:24:31] Adam: Like the contamination of the scene. 

[00:24:33] Kyle Risi: Exactly. And this case will later be used like as a teaching tool to show people like how important it is to preserve the integrity of the crime scene because this is the first time where It's such a big profile case, everyone wanted in, so they were all just traipsing around the house.

[00:24:48] Of course, because this was such a high profile media story, it attracted people looking to capitalise on the tragedy, as it always does. 

[00:24:57] One of those people was a man named Gaston B. [00:25:00] Means Gaston. Gaston. Is he French? I'm assuming so. I guess with a name like that. Yeah, probably. 

[00:25:07] Adam: I think of Beauty and the Beast.

[00:25:09] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's the only Gaston I know. So what he does is he approaches a famous socialite. Her name is Evelyn Walsh McLean. So she famously, owned the 45 carat Hope Diamond, which is a huge gem and famously kind of the inspiration behind that kind of the heart of the ocean from the titanic.

[00:25:27] Anyway, Gaston B means, tells Evelyn that he knew exactly where the limbo baby was, and he claimed that if she gave him 100, he could help get the baby back. So she, of course, hands over the money and he promptly just ends up running off.

[00:25:42] Really? Yeah. What a cheeky motherfucker. Yeah. Eventually he is obviously caught. He's sentenced to 15 years in prison, but his actions just highlight how there were people out there trying to exploit this tragedy for their own gain just based on how huge its profile was. 

[00:25:55] Yeah, that's pretty crazy. And he got 15 years. He got 15 years for this. [00:26:00] Damn. Yeah, don't fuck with a socialite, man. Yeah. 

[00:26:02] Now let's talk about one of the biggest blunders in this case. 

[00:26:05] As we know today, when a crime like this happens, the parents are usually the number one most likely suspect, right? But instead of investigating Charles Lindbergh, they decide that they need someone to steer the investigation, and so, with no background in law enforcement, they allow Charles Lindbergh himself to actually run the entire operation.

[00:26:28] Adam: What? That's so stupid, isn't it? So like this guy is a pilot. Yeah. He has no, I don't know, detective skills. Nope. Why would they ever think that was a good idea? 

[00:26:38] Kyle Risi: I think because like he is such a big national hero and also because he's well connected. They just allow this to happen. I guess because he's part of a kind of the upper echelons of society, that it's not really questioned that much and they're happy for him to help. It still seems, yeah, but they could like buy us, they're not gonna have the experience to look into certain things. Exactly.

[00:26:59] So it's [00:27:00] because he was a celebrity and a national hero that Charles Lindbergh is given almost carte blanche to manage this investigation. So he assembles his own team, which includes a guy called Herbert Schwartzkopf, who is the superintendent of the New Jersey police at the time.

[00:27:14] He also recruits his friend, Colonel Henry Beckenridge, who is a prominent lawyer and businessman in New York. and William Donovan who was a well known military figure whom Charles had other connections with. So these are pretty prominent people and like it's not like he's getting his neighbour to help out like he's going I'm connected with these big old people who are prominent people in society let me get them and people are going to say yeah that sounds like a good idea because we don't really know what the fuck we're doing.

[00:27:43] Adam: You're getting the best of the best. 

[00:27:44] Kyle Risi: Exactly. 

[00:27:45] Adam: Okay, that's better. I thought he was just getting like, oh Joe, do you want to help out? And like, I don't know, the big man. Sally, 

[00:27:51] Kyle Risi: we need, we need men on the ground. Are you happy to help? So the initial thought was that the kidnapping may have been a mafia job.

[00:27:58] So what they figured they could do [00:28:00] is connect with some of the biggest mafia bosses around and they might be able to kind of strike a deal to get more information about the whereabouts of where the baby might be. It just so happens that they speak to another old friend of the pod, Mr. Al Capone.

[00:28:13] Adam: Oh. When you say friend of the pod, you get me like, oh really? And then I'm like, oh no, they're dead. 

[00:28:18] Kyle Risi: Well, a once friend. I mean, we go into the pages of history, so these people are technically, we bring them to life, we immortalize them through our words, Adam. It's very beautiful, very poetic. So of course, as you know, Al Capone was serving time in Alcatraz at the time.

[00:28:32] So Al Capone claimed that not only did he know who took the Lindenburg baby, but he could also help get the baby back. If. They would only let him out of prison. 

[00:28:43] Adam: Mmm. That feels like, I don't know, maybe a slight bested interest in that. Exactly. 

[00:28:48] Kyle Risi: And I mean, it could be true that he does know because he is highly connected, but the fear is that he might run off if they let him out, essentially.

[00:28:56] Adam: True, and wasn't he going a little bit crazy as well because he had syphilis? 

[00:28:59] Kyle Risi: [00:29:00] Yeah, I mean, if anything's going to make you crazy, it's going to be syphilis, right? Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe he had that CCTV cancer from the dogs.

[00:29:08] So yeah, in the end, they just refused his offer. So they didn't really have a lead from within the mafia side of things. So when getting clues from the mafia wasn't working, they decided to try and increase the reward fund to encourage people to come forward with information.

[00:29:20] So the Lindberghs added another 50, 000 to the New Jersey's 25, 000, therefore bringing the total up to about a million dollars in today's money. Oh, wow. And remember, this is during the great. depression. So this is a significant fund. So if there's anything that's going to motivate people to come forward with information, it's going to be this because everyone in the country is essentially destitute at the time.

[00:29:45] So when none of that worked they realized that they needed more manpower And so the government stepped in to offer kind of more men on the ground. They gave them access to the FBI, the Coast Guard, Customs Services, Immigration Services, and also the DC Police. All of these different agencies would at [00:30:00] some point come together to work on this case.

[00:30:02] But still, throughout this entire investigation, they pretty much get nothing. They had no idea where this child was. It had only been about five days since the kid had gone missing anyway. 

[00:30:12] So on the 6th of March, just a few days later, a new ransom letter arrived and this was postmarked the 4th of March and it was sent from Brooklyn. Now this letter like the first, it also contained the kidnapper's signature Venn diagram.

[00:30:26] That weird symbol that we saw. So I'm paraphrasing here because of course, just like the first letter, it's just filled with spelling mistakes. But essentially, It demanded that they up the ransom amount from 50, 000 to 70, 000. They also warned against going public and involving the police and said that because the public had now been involved, because it was all over the papers, they now had to hold on to the baby until things started to quiet down. They weren't willing to make arrangements for an exchange just yet. 

[00:30:54] In the note, they also assured the Lindberghs that the baby was being well cared for and fed properly [00:31:00] but, for their own protection, they needed to involve another person, which might extend the time that they kept the child for. So, in the letter they also give very specific instructions again on how the money should be broken down.

[00:31:12] Again, 20, 000 in 50s, 25, 000 in 20s, 15, 000 in 10 bills and 10, 000 in fives. And they wanted all the bills to be unmarked and not to be in sequential order, just because of course, otherwise they can track those bills. 

[00:31:29] Adam: Got you. So they've really thought about this. 

[00:31:31] Kyle Risi: They have. They're really smart people.

[00:31:33] So this new note also bragged that they had been planning this for years and that they were ready for anything. So don't try anything clever. Well, you're going to say that, aren't you? Exactly. Of course you are. 

[00:31:43] So following this, a police conference was conducted to announce the arrival of the second note. Clearly, they didn't read the damn note. And they're there to kind of decide how to kind of deal with the case and proceed forward. 

[00:31:54] But then on the 8th of March, a third ransom note is received. And this [00:32:00] is postmarked again from Brooklyn.

[00:32:02] And it's received by Colonel Henry Beckenridge. He's the guy who, Charles Lindbergh recruited to work as part of his dream team. If you will. Again, this note included the same Venn diagram as before, again, paraphrasing, it stated that a man named John Condon should be recruited to act as an intermediary between the Lindbergh family and the kidnappers.

[00:32:23] Adam Cox: So this is Who is this guy? Exactly. They also requested that from now on, all communication between the Lindberghs and the kidnappers was to be conducted through a newspaper advertisement. Posted by this John Condon guy, and it should be buried within the classified ads, specifically the Help Wanted section, in order to kind of like, draw away public attention.

[00:32:48] Adam: That's interesting, to kind of like, put it almost in plain sight. Oh, yeah. 

[00:32:52] Kyle Risi: So, we probably want to know Who John Condon is. It's an interesting last name. Condon. [00:33:00] Yeah. So prior to the note being sent the kidnappers had actually reached out to John Condon Mentioned in the note asking him to act as an intermediary thinking this would help create distance between the police In case that there was a sting operation going on.

[00:33:12] So John Condon, his nickname was Jafzee. So Jafzee. Jafzee. So J A F Z E S I E and this is what all future correspondents would be kind of like marked with in the newspaper, right? So they have a message in the wanted help section like cleaner wanted Jafzee and be like some kind of clue So he was a 72 year old retired school teacher and he was a well known personality in the Bronx area.

[00:33:36] So he became involved in the case when he wrote an open letter to the kidnappers in the local Bronx newspaper offering a thousand dollars if he would just turn the baby over to a priest. a person. Just a thousand. They go on 72 years old, Adam. He probably doesn't have any money.

[00:33:52] He's doing the best he can. Right. But when the kidnappers see this, they figure that this would potentially benefit them because he could [00:34:00] then act as an intermediary between the police and the Lindberghs. So, like, they could use him as a buffer just in case something was being planned, right? Interesting, yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting move. 

[00:34:10] Very sophisticated move. I think it's very clever. Okay, so keep a note of that because it'll make you question whether or not the guy who they initially suspect was actually capable of all of that. 

[00:34:21] Adam: Yeah, I don't know. 

[00:34:22] Kyle Risi: Yeah, following the kidnappers instructions the Lindbergh's they contact this John Condon guy and they officially approve him as this intermediary and they have in place a classified ad in the New York American newspaper reading the money is ready JAFSIE and that's just hidden kind of in plain sight exactly as you said inside this classified ads.

[00:34:42] Then the kidnappers respond. They demand a meeting with John Condon at Woodland Cemetery in Bronx in the middle of the night. So John Condon arrives and the kidnappers stay or the kidnapper stays kind of in the shadows. It's like, don't look at me. Don't turn around. Don't look at me. Don't [00:35:00] look at me.

[00:35:00] I imagine that kind of that scene from Christina Aguilera, the beginning of, What's that song that she sung? I don't know. Don't look at me. Every day is so wonderful. 

[00:35:12] Adam: Imagine a dramatic, a dramatic performance. I think imagine just like some guy just eyes forward, don't look around. Probably, more likely that. And then yeah, facing opposite directions.

[00:35:21] Kyle Risi: So apparently John says that The kidnapper spoke with an accent and he claimed to be part of a group of Scandinavians holding the baby and he said that the baby was on board a ship and the baby was safe. 

[00:35:33] John obviously being skeptical that he even had the baby asked for proof that he actually did and the kidnapper replied that he would mail him something in the post to prove that he did indeed have the baby.

[00:35:47] So Kondon was about to leave. The kidnapper then asked, would I burn if the package was already dead? Meaning, would I be executed if I killed the Lindbergh baby? A [00:36:00] very interesting question. 

[00:36:01] Adam: Yeah, that's like maybe 

[00:36:02] Kyle Risi: a foreshadowing? 

[00:36:04] Adam: Yeah, always kind of like, this has gone wrong. Mm hmm. That is awful. 

[00:36:09] Kyle Risi: Yeah.

[00:36:10] So on the 16th of March, the kidnappers follow through with their promise to provide evidence that they had the baby and they post John Condon a package and in that package is a toddler's sleeping suit along with another note.

[00:36:25] And so Condon brings the sleeping suit to the Lindberghs who then verify that yes, this is our baby's kind of Pajama suit if you will. And so there is no question that the kidnapper. Does have the baby then they obviously they're still grappling with this potential possibility that the kidnappers have killed the baby, but they're not thinking about that right now They just have a job to do get the money and then see what happens. 

[00:36:48] Adam: They know that he at least had the baby.

[00:36:50] Yes

[00:36:51] Kyle Risi: So they get the evidence John Condon then places another ad in the home news saying money is ready, no cops, no secret service, I come [00:37:00] alone like last time. So in response, John receives a letter on the 4th of April instructing him to take the money to St. Raymond's Cemetery in the Bronx at night on the 6th of April.

[00:37:11] There he was to hand over the box containing the ransom money and following this, They would then receive communication about next steps on where they could go ahead and collect the baby, right? So it's looking promising. 

[00:37:23] So the Lindbergh's arranged for the money as instructed and this is the clever bit They create a custom box for the money to go into and this way like if the box is ever found then it can be Easily identified as the box that they gave to the kidnappers.

[00:37:35] So yeah Also, the money is going to contain a bunch of gold certificates as a bonus. They're just going to stuff them in there. They're worth a lot of money. And this is another smart decision because these certificates would very soon be pulled from circulation, a fact that wasn't public knowledge just yet. Right. Sneaky. 

[00:37:57] It meant that anyone holding these gold certificates would need to go [00:38:00] to a bank or an exchange point at some point to convert them into cash bills, and they had to do this before a deadline. 

[00:38:07] Adam: But then if you're a kidnapper, and you've got 70, 000 and then you've got a couple of extra bonus certificates, you're kind of like, um, Yeah, why would they do that?

[00:38:17] Kyle Risi: Because it's worth a lot of money. You'd be tempted. Exactly. And also with this idea of this looming deadline, they might forget their own ambitions and be like, Oh, I'm just going to risk it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 

[00:38:28] Adam: okay.

[00:38:29] Kyle Risi: So the hope was, of course, that the kidnapper would then show up at one of these exchange points and allow the police to pretty much narrow down who the suspect might be because they typically grab some details when you do the exchange. 

[00:38:40] So on the of the 6th of April, John goes to the cemetery, he hands over the ransom money to a man that's lurking in the shadows and he says that his name is also John. Now, in exchange, Kidnapper John gives John Condon a note indicating the exact location of the Lindenburg baby. Why would you give your real name?

[00:38:59] [00:39:00] But anyway, carry on. It's probably not his real name, right? Yeah. But the reason why I mention it is because it's important because he will, John Condon, will go off to write a book called Cemetery John. And he's not writing it about himself. I just need to make that clear that he's writing about the kidnappers.

[00:39:13] Right, okay. So the Lindberghs go to this specific location, which according to the note was somewhere near Martha's Vineyard, but when they arrive, there's no baby. So naturally, the Lindberghs are beside themselves with worry. So all they can do at this point is just wait in the hopes that the kidnapper sends another communication, but they never receive anything.

[00:39:34] And as the days go on, the hope of finding their son finally starts to fade. A couple days later they start to panic a bit and on the 8th of April Charles and his team they make a public appeal offering even a larger amount of money for any information and on the 10th of April the FBI officially become involved in this rather than just going, Hey, if you need some help, 

[00:39:54] let us know. They're now directly involved, but the thing is, though, it's pointless because all they're doing is standing [00:40:00] around twiddling their thumbs. They're literally chasing their tails. They have nothing to go on. They're all just in complete limbo. The best they can do is just wait to hear back from the kidnappers.

[00:40:10] And this ends up dragging on for a month. So you can imagine the kind of the despair in the families. 

[00:40:17] Adam: Yeah, like they've given the money. They've done everything that they said they would do to get their child back and then 

[00:40:22] Kyle Risi: nothing. 

[00:40:23] So on the 12th of May. A truck driver named William Allen was walking in the woods about five miles from the Lindbergh's home when he looked down and he discovered the body of the Lindbergh baby.

[00:40:35] His skull had been clearly fractured. And he'd seem to have been there for a long time considering the amount of decomposition that it's set in. Wow, that's horrible. So the baby was dead, Adam. And when this news broke, it hit the world hard, like the public had become so deeply invested in the recovery of Charles Jr. that there was this sense that the limbo baby had become everybody's baby. So when the news hit, it like really impacted [00:41:00] everyone. Here is an historical clippet of that news break in.

[00:41:05] Audio: Here is the patch of woods barely four miles from his home where baby Lindbergh was found. His little body lying face downward in the undergrowth, killed by those who kidnapped him. 

[00:41:17] Adam: It's odd that they got music to the background of that. It is odd, and it's like classical music. And like sad kind of music, because you wouldn't have that on the news now.

[00:41:27] Kyle Risi: But how are you going to know how to feel? It could be a villainous baby. And they'll be playing like glorious music. And then you, at least you know how you're supposed to feel. 

[00:41:36] Adam: Yeah, I thought that was odd. But, so yeah, the guy, Cemetery John, gave a big clue. And it clearly had effed things up. And I was like, I still want my money. 

[00:41:45] Kyle Risi: Exactly. He didn't want to waste that opportunity, I guess. 

[00:41:48] So by June, now that we know, obviously, that the baby has passed, it seems that the Mafia was not somehow responsible for this. So the investigation directs its attention to the possibility [00:42:00] that maybe it was someone within the Lindbergh household that had done this.

[00:42:05] And I'll explain why. The first person they look at is the maid who is a woman called Violet Sharp. Now initially, at the start of the investigation, it's noted how rude and dismissive she was to the police. When she was first questioned about her whereabouts on the night of the abduction, she said that she had gone on a blind date with another couple. Only, she didn't remember who the couple was. 

[00:42:27] And also she said that they saw a movie, but she didn't remember what the movie was. that feels really suspicious. It feels odd, doesn't it? Yeah. Then during a subsequent interview, she changed her story and said, No, no, we didn't go to a movie, we actually went to a local roadhouse that evening.

[00:42:44] What's interesting is that the Lindberghs from the very beginning were insistent that it was none of their own stuff. And that because the Lindberghs were the ones leading the investigation, they essentially terminated all potential kind of inquiries that looked into their [00:43:00] stuff specifically.

[00:43:01] So this was pretty much everyone except for Colonel Schwarzkopf, who was a little bit more reasoned than the Lindberghs were, and he was like, listen, okay, you don't think it was your stuff, but I'm just going to keep an open mind, right, I'm just going to put the feeders out there, I'm just going to maybe, ask a few questions, ask around a little bit, if I have a bit of free time, I might do some investigation, 

[00:43:21] Adam: right?

[00:43:21] Yeah, it's kind of like, he's doing the right thing, the right way of going about it. 

[00:43:25] Kyle Risi: Schwarzkopf goes and he tries to question her for a third time, but by the time he does, she's killed herself. What? Mmm. And this is where it gets sad because people think, obviously, She must have been involved in some way and that's why she killed herself out of guilt and grief. 

[00:43:42] Adam: So how long after the The incident when the baby went missing that she killed herself.

[00:43:48] Kyle Risi: I'm not quite sure exactly when but it must been after The 12th of May I guess when the baby was discovered. 

[00:43:54] Adam: So she's given a couple of dodgy interviews and now she's dead, 

[00:43:59] Kyle Risi: It will later come [00:44:00] out that she did actually have an alibi for that night because after a suicide a young man named Ernest Miller came forward and confirmed her part of the story about the date, and he corroborated that with the couple that they had supposedly gone on the date with.

[00:44:14] Adam: Hang on, but if they didn't go to the cinema, where did he say they were? 

[00:44:18] Kyle Risi: He said that they went to the cinema. Uh huh. So they actually did, but she changed the story and she flip flopped quite a lot. But it's interesting why she was flip flopping. Why can't she just tell them that? the beginning of the first alibi was the truth, right? And just corroborate with the couple. Why was she so cagey about 

[00:44:35] Adam: Unless something, I was thinking she got like a secret, like she's having an affair or something. Yeah, maybe they're 

[00:44:39] Kyle Risi: doing like a menage a trois or whatever, or like a four way or 

[00:44:44] Adam: wife swapping, I don't know. Yeah, for that to happen, like she's covering something, it seems like.

[00:44:48] Yeah, 

[00:44:48] Kyle Risi: it just seemed very suspicious because it's almost like she lied, but she didn't need to lie because it was corroborated later on. But then it could be at the same time, Ernest Miller was maybe. potentially in on it as well. And maybe, yeah, maybe he's [00:45:00] involved. Potentially. 

[00:45:02] So then the investigation team begin to wonder if perhaps the kidnapper was closer than they thought, maybe even involved in the investigation. And this suspicion turned all the eyes to John Condon. 

[00:45:14] Adam: Oh, right. The 

[00:45:15] Kyle Risi: guy 

[00:45:16] Adam: that's supposed to be doing a good deed and then now a suspect. 

[00:45:19] Kyle Risi: Exactly. So the main question driving their suspicion was how he was able to gain the trust so easily. And on top of that, he started displaying really erratic behavior after the baby's body was discovered, apparently one day he was on like a streetcar, went out of the blue.

[00:45:36] He kind of like ran up to the driver and just exclaimed like, I'm the investigator on the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. That's the kidnapper I have to get him. And then he jumps off the trolley, he ran around the park looking for a guy, and then eventually came back to the, the, the car. And he was like, oh yeah, I must have missed him.

[00:45:51] So, to me, it seems like he's relishing in the kind of fact that he's part of this investigation. Yeah, maybe. Now, I'm [00:46:00] not sure if that makes him comfortable, but it definitely gives the sense that he enjoyed the attention that he got from being recognized as the guy helping out in this case, 

[00:46:09] Adam: I'm surprised like none of the police went with him. I know they could have been any cops or whatever, but like someone undercover or something like that to kind of see what, the exchange of the money and the other meetings. 

[00:46:20] Kyle Risi: I think like back then it's too much of a risk, right? They could potentially kill the baby. Now it's different. The police can go with you without going with you.

[00:46:28] Yeah, they can wire you up. They can maybe set you up. Exactly. They can give you a weird camera on your body or something. But back then maybe it was too much of a risk. There was also potentially that idea that the baby had already died anyway, so they didn't, and if that wasn't true, then maybe, like, the actions of the kidnapper may have indicated that they could have been capable of that, so they didn't want to kind of like, stoke the fire.

[00:46:51] And of course, this idea that John Conlon was like really relishing in all of this became even more evident after the discovery of the baby because he decides to [00:47:00] go on a vaudeville tour. And a vaudeville tour is basically like a theatrical kind of act and he calls the act Jafzee and he then sells these stories to Liberty Magazine, which they serialize, and they're all to do with the Lindbergh baby in some sense, so he's using it to kind of, like, Boosts his own. His own profile, essentially.

[00:47:22] Adam: Yeah, that's, interesting because I guess he's late on in life, but he still wants his fame and money. 

[00:47:28] Kyle Risi: Yeah, interesting. I mean, he was a retired schoolteacher as well. So yeah, I mean he seems like quite a good guy But then at the same time, this is strange behavior. Yeah. So as we know, up until this point, the investigation had yielded no suspects and no solid leads.

[00:47:41] But, that was all about to change, because of gold. 

[00:47:45] So the president announces on the 1st of May, 1933, that all gold certificates were going to be withdrawn from circulation. And if you had any of them, then you need to go and exchange them for regular ones, otherwise they would become worthless by a [00:48:00] particular date.

[00:48:00] Okay. So shortly after this announcement, a man named J. J. Faulkner. Brings 2, 000 worth of gold certificates into a New York City bank, the bank cross checks the certificates with the flag serial numbers, and they realize that these are the ones that were part of the ransom.

[00:48:18] So naturally the bank alert police and they try to visit the address that was left at the bank but it turns out the address is fake and then over the next 30 months more certificates keep showing up along a particular train line that connected New York to the Bronx and the German enclave of Yorkville.

[00:48:38] So it's not surprising that the Bronx has involved because John Condon is from the Bronx. He posted their first open letter in the Bronx newspaper. so it makes sense that if it's a local newspaper, that's how the kidnappers would then come to know, John Condon because he read it in his local newspaper. So that means that he's from the Bronx, right? Yeah. The [00:49:00] language in the notes also points to the fact that It's a German national and in the Bronx is this German enclave called Yorkville, 

[00:49:10] Adam: right? And if there's A train connecting so I'm guessing this guy he's Not cashed in these certificates at the same bank. He's done it on several banks 

[00:49:19] Kyle Risi: They're not necessarily banks or exchange points and they can be a bank, but they can also be like gas stations. 

[00:49:24] Adam: Okay? 

[00:49:25] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so each time that JJ Faulkner would go to one of these exchange points, he would just end up using a fake address, leaving obviously police with even fewer clues to go on. But they do know that he must live across the stretch because they're all being exchanged along this route.

[00:49:40] So a little bit of time goes by and another set of certificates are flagged. This time one of the certificates physically has a license plate number written on it in the margin. 

[00:49:52] Adam: Okay. 

[00:49:53] Kyle Risi: So the police head to the gas station where the certificate was exchanged and they asked the attendant if they knew like why this number was written on [00:50:00] there. And it turns out that the cashier was like, yep, the guy looked suspicious. So I wrote down his number plate on the certificate. Interesting. You're smart to do that then.

[00:50:10] He was. So the police traced the car to a German migrant who was living in the Bronx, as we thought, and they start tailing him. But he notices and they end up going through this beautiful full blown like police chase. After the chase he is arrested. It's now the 19th of September 1934. 

[00:50:29] Adam: If you're in a car chase you do look guilty. You normally pull over, right? 

[00:50:34] Kyle Risi: Oh, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Like all this evidence is pointing to this person, right? So like, how could they have got this wrong? like I'm intrigued to find out where The doubt is that he killed this baby because for me, I think he did it.

[00:50:48] Adam: Yeah, so far, it seems like it could be this guy. 

[00:50:50] Kyle Risi: It seems plausible. So when they search this guy's house, they find 14, 000 of the ransom money. Hidden in his garage. Really? And in his pocket was a gold [00:51:00] certificate and his name was Bruno Richard Houtman Okay, So listen to this footage from after his arrest 

[00:51:08] Audio: and this is Bernard Richard Houtman 35 whose arrest is Lindbergh ransom collector and the kidnapping has aroused America Make an example of the kidnappers and let the punishment fit the crime.

[00:51:18] In this garage across the street from the Hauptmann home, 13, 750 of the ransom money shown here was found. Two cans were stuffed with the gold certificates, and it was the passing of a gold certificate to Walter Lyle, a gas station attendant, 

[00:51:33] Adam: Again with the music. It's a different time, right? When did they go like, you know what, we don't need the music, the news is worse, or as bad as it is.

[00:51:41] Kyle Risi: They need the guy who invented the BBC news intro music. Bulletin, yeah. Bulletin music, yeah. actually I have a real fascinating fact about that. Do you know the guy who, you know the BBC music, right? That I'm talking about. Yeah, the beeps. Yeah, let me just quickly get that up for our listeners.

[00:51:56] [00:52:00] So the guy who invented that music also invented this.

[00:52:09] I've noticed you around. Um, I find you very attractive.

[00:52:16] Would you go to bed with me?

[00:52:23] Adam: He's the composer of that song. Isn't that mental? that could have been news music. Which, I'm all for. 

[00:52:31] Kyle Risi: Yeah, that's it. It just blows my mind that that's the same guy.

[00:52:35] So, do you want to know a bit about Bruno? 

[00:52:37] Adam: Bruno, what's he been up to? Has he somehow got involved or he's been given the money and so that's why he's somehow, I don't know, associated. I don't know. 

[00:52:45] Kyle Risi: You're very intuitive. Well done. That's the only way he could be innocent, right? True, exactly. So that's what he says. So basically, he was indeed German and he grew up in Germany. His life was pretty rough. He was arrested for armed robbery and he was once [00:53:00] even caught red handed robbing the mayor's house equipped with a ladder. I don't know if that's incriminating evidence.

[00:53:05] Another ladder? Another ladder? What are the chances? So to escape his criminal record in Germany, he stowed away in a ship. He headed to New York in 1923 at the age of 24, and in New York he marries a waitress named Anna and they have one child together. That's pretty much all the information that we know.

[00:53:24] When the news breaks out for the arrest of the kidnapping of the Linbo baby, he is quickly labeled as the most hated man literally in the world. There are countless newspapers who are running story after story about how terrible this man from Germany who killed an innocent baby who was beloved by the world.

[00:53:42] But throughout his entire interrogation, Bruno just completely denies all of this. all involvement whatsoever, of course you would do anyway, right? Especially if your life is on the line. So here's the interesting thing, like Bruno's first language was not English, so the police would beat him severely for failing to [00:54:00] comply. When in reality, he just didn't understand what they were even saying to him. He claimed that the money and the other items found in his house were left with him by a friend and a former business partner. Isidore Fish. Conveniently, the police couldn't corroborate the story because Fish had actually died in March, just gone. Oh, okay. So Bruno said that he had discovered the box containing the money after learning of Fish's death. 

[00:54:28] He didn't report the money because Fish owed him money anyway , so he just decided to keep that money that he found that he'd left as repayment for his debt anyway. So he didn't think that he was doing anything wrong.

[00:54:39] And was Isidore Fish also German? He was also a German, yeah. Okay. Fish had actually died in Germany because he contracted tuberculosis and then he decided to go home, and that's where he ended up dying. Now, despite maintaining his innocence and insisting he knew nothing about the kidnapping, was indicted on September the 24th, 1934, and charged with extorting 50, [00:55:00] 000 of ransom money from obviously Charles Lindbergh, and also for the murder of the Lindbergh baby.

[00:55:08] So he's now guilty. He has to stand trial. And this happens two weeks later in October, 1934, marking the start of what the press dubbed as the trial of the century. Bring any bells? How many trials of the century are we gonna have? there has to be at least one. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I guess you can't really review whether or not it's a trial of the century in the moment.

[00:55:29] You've got to kind of wait till the century ends, right? 

[00:55:31] Adam: If they were calling it the trial of the century then, but then you had OJ Simpson, which was also in that same century. Maybe you just get trumped like that. Exactly, so what's trial of the century? Top ten trials of the century. 

[00:55:42] Kyle Risi: That's it. And this is certainly one of them.

[00:55:44] The town of Flemington, New Jersey, where the trial is going to take place is just completely overrun with spectators and press all eager to just get a front row seat to see this man go down for what they believed was the murder of like the nation's baby.

[00:55:59] So the press is [00:56:00] already having this huge impact on the outcome of the story. They're marking him, they're deeming him this monster, this vicious monster that killed this beloved baby. So it's only going to have a negative impact on the outcome of this trial. And this is the first time this has happened, so they've no idea what they're dealing with.

[00:56:17] Here is a bit of commentary from the actual trial itself. 

[00:56:21] Audio: Defense attorney Riley listens as Hauptmann denies the kidnapping. As soon as you get the ID of kidnapping this child, justice is set forth in that letter. I've never got an ID to kidnap any child. Then that board from Hauptmann's house with Jaffe's address.

[00:56:36] That is not your handwriting. In spite of that denial, Attorney General Willans has the record to show that Hauptmann had previously admitted that Jaffe's address on the board was in his handwriting. The cross examination grows more 

[00:56:48] Kyle Risi: So the trial was not going well for Bruno because the evidence against him was so overwhelming and obviously without Fish to corroborate his story that he had left the money, there was just no other way to prove otherwise, [00:57:00] right?

[00:57:00] The handwriting on the ransom note was very similar to his when they analyzed that and also they said that the makeshift ladder that he used during the kidnapping was from wood pulled up from the floor of his attic. 

[00:57:15] Adam: Really? They were able to match that back? Well, they didn't take up the whole floor, did they?

[00:57:20] Or did they, like, did they look at his house and go, why are there like half the floorboards missing? 

[00:57:24] Kyle Risi: Exactly. That's exactly what they say, apparently, in this case. Yeah. Even more incriminating was the fact that John Condon's address and phone number were written on Houtman's wall inside his closet.

[00:57:36] Adam: Right. Okay. How did that get 

[00:57:38] Kyle Risi: there? So he'd obviously must have written that down, because of course, if he was reading the newspaper saying, Hey, do you know what, give the baby over to a priest, I'll give you 1, 000. Yeah. And then obviously, he reached out to him to act as a mediator, etc, etc. Those contact details were from the newspaper and someone who wrote them down on the wall.

[00:57:55] So he will later claim that yes, he was interested, in potentially reaching [00:58:00] out to try and extort money from him and claim that he was a kidnapper when he wasn't actually. 

[00:58:06] Adam: Really though? Well, 

[00:58:07] Kyle Risi: we saw the same thing happen with Gaston, right? Yeah, I know, but 

[00:58:11] Adam: would you really want to try and like get involved in that when you're perhaps a criminal in the past?

[00:58:14] Sure, it's a 

[00:58:15] Kyle Risi: thousand dollars, it's small stakes, it's not like a hundred thousand dollars, it's the middle of the the Great Depression. I would probably have given it a crack if I could. Wow. Hahaha, I didn't kill the baby, Adam! 

[00:58:26] Adam: No, but Wow. 

[00:58:29] Kyle Risi: Okay, maybe I'll reflect on that tonight. 

[00:58:31] Adam: I think you should. 

[00:58:32] Kyle Risi: They also found a sketch of the ladder that he made in a notebook in his house. he's literally got a blueprint for how to build the ladder. I don't know why you need a blueprint. 

[00:58:42] Adam: Unless he just loves ladders. He could 

[00:58:44] Kyle Risi: do. It's like, you know what, I need a little project. I'm gonna make a ladder.

[00:58:48] And also despite claiming to be broke, he had a radio in his house that in today's money would have cost around about 8, 000. 

[00:58:54] Adam: Okay, 

[00:58:55] Kyle Risi: so he lived in a poor neighborhood, but he had expensive things. You only have expensive things if you come into a [00:59:00] bit of money real quick.

[00:59:01] Also, his wife had just returned from a very expensive trip to Germany. Plus, a waitress had identified him at various places where the certificates had been exchanged. Again, corroborating. That he was indeed the one who exchanged these certificates. 

[00:59:19] Adam: Unless he had more certificates from the other guy that he was then cashing in, not realising.

[00:59:24] That's the only way you could look at it, 

[00:59:25] Kyle Risi: yeah, and I think if Fish was indeed the person who kidnapped the baby. he would be a lot more cautious about going in and exchanging these certificates because obviously he's probably like, Oh, I asked for 75, 000.

[00:59:39] I've got these extra gold certificates that I didn't ask for. Hmm. I wonder if there's like a trap. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Whereas it sounds like the kidnapper is very clever. He would have known that he would have pieced those together. But the fact that he went just willy nilly cashing these certificates.

[00:59:55] says to me that he wasn't the most intelligent person and therefore maybe [01:00:00] Fish did. Leave the money to him went off and died and then he's not knowing that the money's from Yeah, do you want to say 

[01:00:08] Adam: what I mean go treat yourself to a nice German holiday wife? Yeah, I'm gonna go buy a radio. 

[01:00:14] Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly.

[01:00:15] Adam: Do you see what I mean? Oh, yeah, I can see that happening I guess at the moment it still feels like a lot of the evidence is pointing. It does Bruno 

[01:00:22] Kyle Risi: It does it depends how connects the way maybe they were business partners. Maybe they hung out of his house a lot Because it could have been Fish that done all these things.

[01:00:30] I don't know.

[01:00:31] And also, I mean, in terms of Fish anyway, some witnesses have testified he couldn't have been anywhere near the Lindbergh's house. At the time of the kidnapping anyway, because he was off dying of tuberculosis, so he was completely, that's convenient, incapable.

[01:00:44] Adam: really? So what in another country or still in New York? 

[01:00:48] Kyle Risi: I think he was in Germany where he died, but he was suffering from tuberculosis in America. Mm-Hmm. . And they knew that he was incapacitated, like he couldn't move, so he couldn't have gone and kidnapped the baby. 

[01:00:59] Adam: [01:01:00] yeah, that's a fair point because it feels like that's a disease that just doesn't spring up and then all of a sudden you're ill.

[01:01:05] Kyle Risi: Exactly.of course, there's no surprise that Bruno is found guilty and he is sentenced to death by the electric chair. And the New Jersey governor visited Bruno on death row before his execution. And based on that meeting, he didn't believe that this was like a one person job.

[01:01:21] So he, ordered Herbert Schwarzkopf, who was the superintendent of the New Jersey police, to just keep investigating in the background. And that's really interesting, because as a result, an independent investigator into the Lindbergh kidnapping obtained a signed confession from a former attorney, 

[01:01:41] a guy called Paul Wendell. Literally claiming responsibility for the kidnapping and the murder of the Lindenburg baby. Really? So if they just closed the case and accepted that, Bruno had done this, they wouldn't have got that, that confession essentially. So this ends up leading to a [01:02:00] temporary suspension on Bruno's execution.

[01:02:03] So Bruno is now on death row, but there's other guys now confessed to it. So they're like, what do we do? Here's a little clip from it.

[01:02:09] Hauptmann was pronounced guilty and the Lindbergh case again hit the headlines. A defense appeal was rushed to the state capital at Trenton, where the prosecution fought to uphold the death penalty.

[01:02:19] Upman's defense attorneys faced documented proof of their client's guilt. In addition, mass hysteria was almost making a mockery of a deadly serious situation, which had brought death to a child, bitter grief to his parents, and which now meant life or death to the condemned.

[01:02:35] Kyle Risi: So as a result, Bruno's defence team, rush an appeal to have his conviction overturned while the prosecution fight, to uphold that death penalty conviction. Ultimately, the prosecution is successful when they manage to kind of argue that Paul Wendell's confession was obtained under coercion.

[01:02:54] Almost potentially. similar to how Bruno's would have been obtained as well because he was [01:03:00] beaten mercilessly during his interrogation. So they think that something similar might have happened here where they just beat the shit out of him until he confessed. 

[01:03:08] And so as a result, once they proved that it was obtained through coercion, Bruno's conviction was just upheld and he was executed on the 3rd of April 1936, bringing an end to what was dubbed the crime of the century.

[01:03:21] Or was it? So people still think it wasn't him then? Yeah, there's a big body of people out there that think he was not guilty. 

[01:03:30] Adam: Was there any other evidence that came to light afterwards then that suggested otherwise? Because right now, aside from, I don't know, we don't know how he got hold of the money, but it feels like there's a lot stacked up against him still.

[01:03:42] Kyle Risi: It does. And we can only go on theories and new evidence that's come later on. A lot of stuff gets muddied in the water as it gets fragmented and time passes and new investigations happen into it. But we'll go through some of those theories now. Okay.

[01:03:58] So what eventually [01:04:00] emerged from this case were loads of lessons of how high profile cases should be investigated in the future. 

[01:04:06] One of the major changes in the law that came out of this was the Federal Kidnapping Act, also known as the Lindbergh Law, on what would've been Charles Lindbergh Jr's second birthday. On the 22nd of June, 1932, Congress passed an act making kidnapping 

[01:04:21] across state lines a federal crime that would be punishable by death. So that's the first major development to come out of this case. 

[01:04:28] So now it would seem like this was a pretty conclusive verdict, considering the evidence against Bruno. But even after all these years, the mystery of what happened to the Linbo baby has been shrouded in doubt. And as they say, there's no smoke without fire, since there've been lots of alternative theories into what had actually happened and how the investigation might have got it wrong.

[01:04:54] I mean like, other than the Kennedy assassination, I can't really think of any other high profile [01:05:00] cases that has kind of spurred as many theories and ideas than the Lindbergh kind of baby kidnapping because execution in 1936, book after book have all come out to re examine the way that the case was undertaken.

[01:05:15] And it all largely revolves around what looks like a sloppy criminal investigation, the biggest issue is that they highlight that the father of the victim, Charles Lindbergh, was put in charge of the entire investigation.

[01:05:32] And this is obviously problematic for two reasons. A, he was in the house and could have had a motive for killing his own child, and B, even if he wasn't culpable, he is far too emotionally invested to think logically. and rationally in the light of, obviously, his son's kidnapping, right?

[01:05:48] Yeah, totally. So, like, Major blunder. Why would you do that? 

[01:05:51] Adam: I'm hoping they don't do that now, or allow that now. 

[01:05:53] Kyle Risi: No, of course they don't. Can you imagine? Also, they point out that Bruno's attorneys were ineffective in challenging the [01:06:00] evidence and the witnesses presented during the trial. They were just hopeless. Now, given the intense media attention that the story attracted, many people were extremely angry about the death of a child and they were just eager for justice. So this created this high likelihood that some witnesses just outright lied about what they saw. As the word of what certain witnesses said became public, others just altered their statements as well to match those accounts because they were just desperate to find justice and they were bandwagoning.

[01:06:31] Oh, you saw him too? Yeah, I saw him too as well. Oh, yeah, maybe you should tell the police. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'll go tell the police. 

[01:06:37] Adam: That's terrible if that it was the case. 

[01:06:39] Kyle Risi: Yeah, so there wasn't really much know how and due diligence kind of input into kind of vetting a lot of these testimonies.

[01:06:46] And like, hey, it's also really clear that the police were coercing people into making false statements, this is undeniable, especially considering that after Bruno was first convicted, The police were ordered to continue the investigation. A full blown confession [01:07:00] ended up being extracted by, from a guy called Paul Wendell who claimed full responsibility. So how is that possible? Unless he was like being coerced or being worn down and forced into kind of making this confession, right?

[01:07:13] We saw the same thing with Amanda Knox as well. How she was just worn down to the point that she just confessed outright to murdering a flatmate. 

[01:07:20] Adam: Yeah, just out like tiredness or whatever they do to like torture in a way. 

[01:07:24] Kyle Risi: It's not good. As for the most damning piece of evidence, the ladder. It was claimed that the wood came from Bruno's own flooring in his attic. However, the defense team failed to verify this because years later upon re examination, it was discovered that that wasn't true at all. Really? But yeah, the defense team didn't go and go, really? Have you got any pictures of where this came from? No, no one had any evidence whether that was true or not. 

[01:07:52] Adam: They just took their word for it. 

[01:07:54] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Or I guess. He's just oh yeah, we found all this wood came from your floor, and he's no it didn't. And he's like, well, here's the wood, and yes it did. [01:08:00] No one verified it. That's terrible. It's awful.

[01:08:03] And Bruno always maintained his innocence. So we never really got a clear explanation of how the baby died. It was said at the time that obviously the baby was blungeoned to death, right? Because it had a fractured skull. But in light of the evidence, none of this made sense. First, this was a kidnapping, right?

[01:08:23] The kidnappers were trying to extort money, so why would they blungeon the baby to death, right? It's not like You accidentally killed the person you kidnapped because they were fighting back and you accidentally killed them. It's a damn baby It's not going to fight back, right? Additionally, the baby was found less than five miles from the Lindbergh home

[01:08:40] and based on the state of decomposition It's believed that the baby died that same night that it was reported missing and then it was then dumped at the earliest opportunity So, how is that possible? So what they think happened is that if this was indeed a kidnapping, then when the kidnapper was climbing down the ladder, they accidentally dropped the baby, [01:09:00] causing a fatal head injury. They panicked and then they just disposed of the baby and then continued this entire charade to try and extract the money.

[01:09:09] And that makes so much sense because of course the first night with Cemetery John that John Condon had in the cemetery, he was like, what would happen if I killed the baby, right? 

[01:09:18] Adam: Yeah. 

[01:09:18] Kyle Risi: That was immediately after all this happened. 

[01:09:21] Adam: Yeah. 

[01:09:21] Kyle Risi: It's the first thing that he said, on departure. 

[01:09:23] Adam: have been like an accident, I would have thought, yeah.

[01:09:25] Kyle Risi: Yeah, 

[01:09:26] Adam: yeah, it must have been an accident. Unless it was someone that was connected that, I don't know, with the family that accidentally killed the baby and staged the whole 

[01:09:32] Kyle Risi: thing. Yes, potentially we'll get to that in just a second. So another interesting piece of evidence concerns Fingerprinting on the ladder that will take us into the household in a second But initially no fingerprints were found on the ladder.

[01:09:47] However, a man named Erastus Hudson had discovered a new way to lift fingerprints using silver nitrate, which is what we use today. So there was a precursor to that that they used before then. [01:10:00] And he was brought in to see if they could retrieve any prints from the ladder using this new way of fingerprinting.

[01:10:06] And he managed to lift approximately 500 partial fingerprints from it. But because they were partial, they were largely unusable in court. Now, even though partial fingerprints can't be fully identified, some of them can obviously resemble some prints that do exist, right?

[01:10:26] They can go, okay, is there a partial match there? However, none of the partial prints remotely matched Runo. On the other hand, they did match many of the people on the investigation team, including Charles Lindbergh himself. So they weren't full matches, but they were partial matches that Charles Lindbergh's fingerprints were on the ladder.

[01:10:48] Now, we're not talking about in the places where you would normally use a ladder. We're talking about places where a fingerprint might appear during the construction of a ladder. So not during [01:11:00] the use of a ladder. Because, of course, if you piecing together a ladder, hammering it together, you're holding in various areas where there were fingerprints that they managed to pick up, partial fingerprints, none belonged to Bruno.

[01:11:11] Adam: Then you said a lot of the fingerprints or partial fingerprints were of the investigation team, is it just them handling the ladder? Possibly. Moving it around. So they're being careless obviously in doing that. Yes, 

[01:11:22] Kyle Risi: But that's my point, is that they can verify that. If they can pick up the investigation teams who were using and handling the ladder, you would expect them to be able to pick up some partial prints from Bruno who supposedly made the ladder.

[01:11:34] Sure. But there were none of his on there. That's interesting. It is. So based on his findings, Hudson deduced that the kidnapping was likely an inside job. When the case went to trial, Hudson chose to testify in defense of Bruno, even though he knew this decision would obviously ruin his life and ruin his career as the public would obviously be but he

[01:11:56] but he felt so strongly about his findings that he was just willing to take the [01:12:00] risk. So his testimony clearly struck a nerve with someone because afterwards, when they went to re examine the ladder, they found that someone had deliberately washed it down. Oh. Who would have done that? 

[01:12:15] Adam: Maybe someone who's running the investigation.

[01:12:17] Kyle Risi: Exactly! one theory suggests that this might have been an accident, and that Lindbergh was trying to cover it up, possibly attempting to lay blame on someone like Bruno, and the idea is that the latter was deliberately placed at the scene to make it look like a kidnapping, concealing the truth that the baby's death was an accident. a tragic accident. 

[01:12:37] Adam: And then you've got the maid who basically, committed suicide, right? And she didn't know where she was. Did she know what had gone on actually? Possibly. Yeah, that was it. Isn't it 

[01:12:49] Kyle Risi: crazy? So obviously all of this is just purely speculative, of course, but it could explain the erratic behavior of Violet Sharp. We're in question about her whereabouts, the night that obviously the baby went missing, why the [01:13:00] Lindberghs try to steer attention away from their staff, and why Lindbergh himself was so motivated to take charge. Something that most parents wouldn't want to do, even if like someone had kidnapped the baby.

[01:13:12] I'd be like, I'm not strong enough to lead this. I need the best on that. I wouldn't be confident in myself. Yeah, that's interesting. How arrogant must you be to go, John, my baby's been killed. It's a race against the clock. I'm going to do it. 

[01:13:23] Adam: Do you think the wife knew? I don't know. Have we talked about it?

[01:13:28] No, we haven't. Yeah. 

[01:13:30] Kyle Risi: Yeah, it's not really a huge amount of information. It could be, I mean, I could understand like in the JonBenetRamsay case where you have another child that you have to care for and therefore you have a vested interest in trying to cover up like the fact that you've accidentally killed her or that your brother has killed her because of course you want to protect him. They didn't have another child. So it's really interesting. 

[01:13:51] Adam: Then how did those notes get to Bruno? That's the only thing, all the certificates and the money. That's the only bit we still don't know. It was Lindenburg [01:14:00] himself. How did Fish end up getting them? There's still something we don't know. Yeah, 

[01:14:04] Kyle Risi: yeah, there's loads of unanswered questions, but there's some interesting little threads to pull up on.

[01:14:09] Yeah. Do you know what I mean? 

[01:14:10] Adam: Love a conspiracy.

[01:14:12] Kyle Risi: So there's this book called The Crime of the Century, The Lindenburg Kidnapping Hoax. And it actually implies this same theory suggesting that the Lindberghs accidentally killed their baby during kind of like play and then they panicked and then they tried to blame Bruno.

[01:14:25] So they might go into more detail on that, I haven't read the book. I personally think that Bruno was involved, I don't believe that he acted alone, I think that this was a man that was just out of his depth. He didn't speak English very well, he was still relatively new to the country, so I'm not convinced he was comfortable enough operating on his own.

[01:14:43] So my gut instinct says that he must have had a team, and actually, I don't know. In a most recent book on the case called Cemetery John by a guy called Robert Zorn, in it, Zorn claims that his father had actually witnessed Bruno and two other [01:15:00] German born brothers, conspiring to kidnap the baby.

[01:15:03] Now, if this is true, it lends credibility to the idea that Bruno didn't act alone. However, when Bruno was arrested, he never once even instigated that he worked with someone else. But again, people have argued that if he did, that would then imply that he was guilty. Right? So he wants to obviously maintain his innocence.

[01:15:23] That's a strategy he's going for. Of course, he's not going to say someone else is involved. But it's interesting that he never even did that on death row right up to the last minute. 

[01:15:30] Adam: Unless the other person involved was fish. 

[01:15:33] Kyle Risi: Yeah, possibly. But I mean, it's not these two guys. They're guys with John and Walter Knoll. They were two brothers, so it wasn't fish. Fair enough.

[01:15:39] So what do you think? Was Bruno Hauptmann guilty or do you think he was working With others. 

[01:15:45] Adam: I don't know. it's a difficult one because I feel like there's just too much pointing at him or at least unexplainable to completely remove him from the investigation Yeah, altogether.

[01:15:56] But yeah, I guess The way it was [01:16:00] handled. Maybe that's why people just got loads more questions. And actually that is the case. They did get the guy But something doesn't add up. 

[01:16:07] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I agree. I think they caught the guy, but when something in hindsight is so glaringly problematic in terms of the way it was conducted, there's always naturally going to be those questions.

[01:16:16] But I do think that they did solve the murder. But that's the thing though, with this case, I think a lot of people don't realize that it actually was solved. Like someone was convicted, someone was executed for it. I think when everything I've known about the story is, oh, the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, who did it?

[01:16:33] But actually, someone was convicted of it and he was executed, but again, that's the fallout of how, what we know about sloppy investigations now, back then, maybe it was considered absolutely fine. But, it's interesting to reflect back on it and realise that this is one of the very first times that radio and television were used in such a high profile case.

[01:16:54] And also, it's one of the earliest examples of how it was used to kind of. [01:17:00] inadvertently influence public opinion that could potentially lead to the wrong man being convicted. Interesting. So I think that's it for today. Yeah. Okay. Should we run the outro? Let's do it. 

[01:17:12] And that wraps up another journey into the fascinating and the intriguing on the compendium.

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[01:17:47] See you next time. 

[01:17:47] See ya [01:18:00]