The Compendium Podcast
An Assembly of Fascinating and Intriguing Things, a weekly variety podcast that gives you just enough information on a topic to help you stand your ground at any social gathering. We explore big stories from true crime, history, and extraordinary people.
The Compendium Podcast
Lover, Stalker, Killer: Disturbing love triangle turned deadly
In this episode of the Compendium, When David Kroupa ventured into online dating, he couldn't have foreseen the terrifying love triangle that would ensnare him and Liz Golyar, leading to the mysterious disappearance of Cari Farver.
This dark side of dating and the lengths to which some people will go to get the lover of their dreams. This is the disturbing realities behind online dating gone wrong.
We give you the Compendium, but if you want more, then check out these great resources:
- “A Tangled Web: A Cyberstalker” - Leslie Rule
- “State v. Golyar” - Findlaw.com
- “Lover, Stalker, Killer” - Netflix film
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Credits:
- Hosts: Kyle Risi & Adam Cox
- Intro and Outro Music: Alice in dark Wonderland by Aleksey Chistilin
- All the Latest Things Intro: Clowns by Giulio Fazio
[Episode 64] The Real Life Fatal Attraction: A Love Triangle With David Kroupa, Liz Golya and Cari Farver.
she, I guess, starts to suspect that things perhaps aren't going the way that she thought they would or, um, the way that she had planned. Mm hmm. So, in a move that's half genius, half bonkers, decides the best way to deflect guilt is to literally take a bullet. Yep. Oh no, she shot herself. She shoots herself.
Adam Cox: Where? Did she shoot herself?
Kyle Risi: What?!
Adam Cox: And if that's not commitment to a lie, I don't know what is.
Adam Cox: Welcome to the Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. We are a weekly variety podcast where each week Kyle Recy normally tells me, Adam Cox, everything he thinks I need to know about a topic that I will find both fascinating and intriguing.
Adam Cox: We dive into stories pulled from the darker corners of true crime, historical events, and the who's who of extraordinary people. We give you just enough information to stand your ground at any social gathering. But today I'm in the driving seat. I am your host Adam Cox. And I'm your co host Kyle Reesey.
Adam Cox: And in today's episode of The Compendium, we're unwrapping a story that is as complex as it is chilling. We dive into one hell of a labyrinth of a tale of when online dating goes horribly wrong. And just the lengths some people might go to in order to hold on to romance.
Kyle Risi: Really? Is this like the, the, the Tinder killer?
Kyle Risi: Uh,
Adam Cox: not a Tinder killer. That's obviously when Tinder was around. This predates Tinder. Poff. Plenty of fish. Yes, you guessed it. Plenty of fish. Is it plenty
Kyle Risi: of fish? Damn.
Adam Cox: Is it plenty
Kyle Risi: of fish? Damn. This is, uh, setting an age on it, isn't it? uh, It's giving it a date.
Adam Cox: Yeah, well, uh, Plenty of Fish was one of the earliest dating sites, I think it was.
Adam Cox: And Match.
Kyle Risi: com as well was one of them . What was, that's the only, Fringe Reunited? It says Fringe Reunited, but everyone knows what it really means. It's for hookups. Yeah, for sure. So like this must be like whatever like , 15 years ago, I guess.
Adam Cox: Yes, round about well, it starts the story Around the 2000s.
Kyle Risi: Okay. Wow. So quite a long time ago
Adam Cox: the noughties Yeah, but today's story. it focuses on a guy called David Krupa and three women he had relationships with Amy Flora, the mother of his children, and then two women he would go on to date, Carrie Farver and Liz Gollier. What starts out as maybe a What starts out as maybe a little jealousy, quickly spirals into a chilling saga of deception, stalking, and a mystery that baffled America.
Kyle Risi: Ooh, a stalking story!
Adam Cox: It's not a crime novel, but this is a real life version of Fatal Attraction, or that's my opinion of it anyway, which even caught the attention of Netflix.
Kyle Risi: Okay, so I just want to add something there, because you hear that term all the time, don't you? Fatal Attraction. Yeah. And that's a film, isn't it?
Kyle Risi: Yeah. I have no idea what that's about.
Adam Cox: Really? The, the movie with the bunny boiler?
Kyle Risi: Oh, that one! No, I haven't ever seen it, but I do know the scene very well. That's Fatal Attraction.
Adam Cox: Yeah.
Kyle Risi: That's where the term bunny boiler comes from, right?
Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly that.
Kyle Risi: So who's the chicken? Who's the main girl? Is that Zucconi Weaver?
Adam Cox: ZZ corny weaver. In like zucchini. Zucchini weaver. Yeah, zucchini weaver. Um, it is a lady called Glen Close.
Kyle Risi: Oh, of course Glen close. In the younger days I can now imagine the scene. 'cause obviously it's been depicted so, so, so many times over the course of my life.
Kyle Risi: Um, I can, I remember her perm. Yes. And I remember the big pot, and I remember the very 90s or 80s kind of style kitchen that she was in when the bunny is revealed.
Adam Cox: Yeah, well, she's the one that plants the bunny, um, it's because his wife is someone else. I think Anne Archer. Um, but yeah, Michael Douglas is the main guy and he's the one that thinks he can get away with it.
Adam Cox: Oh, Michael Douglas is
Kyle Risi: in it as well!
Adam Cox: Yeah, you should watch it, it's a really good movie.
Kyle Risi: I think I will, so this is gonna be a story that kind of is a bit, a bit obsessive.
Adam Cox: You've got it in one.
Kyle Risi: Oh my god, I'm so excited for this, I'm so ready.
Adam Cox: We're gonna unravel how one of these women, So we're going to unravel how one of these women wreaked havoc on the lives of those entangled in Dave's love and family life.
Adam Cox: From vanishing acts, to messages from beyond, this story shows the dark side of digital love and obsession.
Kyle Risi: Okay, I'm so good, I'm so ready for this.
Adam Cox: Great. Well, you know how things go before we get into the story. It's the drill. It's the drill. It's time for Should we say, should we try
Kyle Risi: to say it all, both together?
Kyle Risi: It's time for All the Ladies Things!
Kyle Risi: So this is a little segment of our show where we catch up on all the week's happenings, share a quick tidbit, strange fact, or laugh at a bit of weird news from the past week. And because Adam is hosting this week, I think it's his turn to go first. Sure, so my
Adam Cox: thing, uh, this week is about Kim Jong un and, uh, a little thing that has apparently been nicknamed the Pleasure Squad.
Kyle Risi: Oh god,
Adam Cox: I know,
Kyle Risi: I'm gonna, I know, I guarantee I know what this is about. He's an evil dictator, of course he's got a whole harem of women just kind of like, On his beck and call, if you will.
Adam Cox: Well apparently, this predates him.
Adam Cox: This is like a long tradition. Oh, really? That goes back to Kim Jong un, no, Kim Jong the second.
Kyle Risi: Okay.
Adam Cox: so what happens every year is Kim Jong un selects 25 virgin girls to join his creepy pleasure squad. And they're picked based on their looks and political loyalty.
Adam Cox: Of course, politics. I mean,
Kyle Risi: it's North Korea, there's only one party. Oh, who are you going to vote for? Oh, you're voting for the opposition? Bang!
Adam Cox: And this was all revealed from a woman called Yonomi Park. And I think she Oh, yes! She is one of the people that managed to defect or escape. I'm not quite sure how it was.
Adam Cox: Uh, and she was one of these, uh, women, as far as I'm aware, or at least was closely tied to it. And so , they would visit, uh, classrooms and schools where they would go and, like, search for anyone that looked, you know, pretty. And then they'd do a load of checks. One of them would be a medical examination to confirm that they were a virgin, which is horrendous.
Adam Cox: Uh, and then they would go through other things to make sure that, I don't know, they didn't have any imperfections, they didn't have scars, their face was symmetrical, whatever it was. And so they'd have to go through all these things and those that didn't meet this criteria would be disqualified. And if you're lucky of one of the handful of girls that were picked, uh, you would be in his, um, yeah, pleasure squad.
Kyle Risi: What does that involve exactly?
I think, um, you Well, I think we all know what it involves
Kyle Risi: Um,
Adam Cox: some of the other things they had to do is they had to be trained in massage, uh, perform songs, and dance for his entertainment. And do they get to live
Kyle Risi: in his, like in his palace or in his big old grand palatial mansion or like, yeah, what's the deal? Do you know?
. Well, there's a lot of women to, , I guess, host.
Adam Cox: And so whether they would all spend or rotate time, I'm not sure the intricate details. So as I said, um, this all started with Kim Jong the second and has been sort of followed up with all his, Successors, and each, uh, person that comes in, this dictator, has apparently a different type, so some would go for a slightly older woman, some would go for some more slender, , and there was rumours that his wife was originally in the Pleasure Squad, this is, uh, yeah, this is Kim Jong Un.
Kyle Risi: Wow, like North Korea is just mental, isn't it? And that, the story of Uh, Yomi Park, is that her name? If I said that correct, Yomi? Yes, that's it, yeah. Is just harrowing, like her story about how she escaped or defected, I think is the, the traditional term they use, is just harrowing because she had to, I believe, escape across the Gobi Desert and it was absolutely freezing, freezing cold and they had a little baby with them as well and they weren't allowed to stop, even for like a minute.
Kyle Risi: Five minutes because they would have froze to death they had to keep moving and they had to keep kind of moving this baby's joints And their arms and stuff to stop it from dying It's crazy and then odd at the set when they got at the end of the desert Then the guys that were like helping them escape were then like yeah, we're not helping you escape We're actually selling you now into slavery.
Adam Cox: Yeah, I remember. Do you know what? This would be a very good podcast episode.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, it would be. It would be hard, hard to listen to when you listen to some of the things that she went through. Like I believe she said that she was down by the river one day just looking for food. And the only things that were available to eat were like snakes.
Kyle Risi: So she'd be like finding snakes and stuff and scavenging and whatnot. And she saw a little boy down by the lake and he was so malnutritioned that the lining of his stomach was so weak that his intestines were just poking through it because, of course, he was that, that's how malnutritioned he was and there were flies around it and it was like his intestines were coming out and when they were asked like, how did you feel about it?
Kyle Risi: And she was like, I felt nothing because it was just normal.
Adam Cox: Wow, that's, uh, normal.
Kyle Risi: That was just normal, it just didn't phase her at all because that's how much hardship they were living through.
Adam Cox: That's like the complete opposite of our normal, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
Kyle Risi: Crazy, crazy story. We should absolutely do a podcast on that.
Kyle Risi: That's
Adam Cox: another survival story for sure.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, for sure.
Adam Cox: my latest thing for this week, which I didn't realize existed, but that's out there in the world.
Kyle Risi: . So my all the latest things for this week is,
Kyle Risi: so I actually still have some of my Google alerts set up, uh, after we did the Rudy Kiriwani episode. Um, and if you haven't listened to that episode, then it's about a guy who was running a whole fake wine operation from his front room. He was selling these bottles of wines for like thousands and thousands of dollars.
Kyle Risi: Do you remember it? And, um, his mum was helping him as well, wasn't she?
Adam Cox: Yeah,
Kyle Risi: And it's really funny because. What's really memorable about that particular episode is that it really highlights how fake all these wine professionals in the industry are.
Kyle Risi: And like for not being able to even tell the difference between like a 500 bottle of wine and a 5 bottle of wine. And it kind of just highlights how much fraud and backhandedness and kind of kickbacks and kind of bribery is in the industry. So, A popular sommelier from Belgium, he is called Eric Bosman, and like, for years he's suspected that a lot of these wine competitions are all just full of shit.
Kyle Risi: And so he decided that he was going to go ahead and find the absolute worst tasting bottle of wine from a supermarket. Like it was like two, two, two euros fifty. That's how cheap it was basically it was cooking wine and what he then did is he worked with a tv program And they then registered the wine for a prestigious international competition.
Kyle Risi: I think it's pronounced gilbert at uh, Gilead. So like sometimes you'll see bottles of wine they've got like that little sticker on it and it will kind of say like two time gold medal or whatever and there's like gold, silver, bronze, etc and you can kind of get little stickers on there. So what he did is he took this supermarket wine he replaced the label he gave it a new name obviously he's not an idiot so he's going to obviously change the label.
Kyle Risi: And then he also created this whole backstory for the wine, claiming that it was this extremely rich and high quality grape from the Bologna hills in Italy. And then he submitted a bunch of fake lab data about the wine. Okay, so that's the objective stuff about it. And then he also started to create a lot of buzz around the wine on social media and with some other plants that were there at the competition and they kind of had their in, uh, that their ins with the kind of the judges and stuff.
Adam Cox: Did he pull it off?
Kyle Risi: And then so to prove that it's all just marketing and the power of suggestion, like if there is a bunch of people just praising this wine, then how does that then influence the professionals who are supposed to be judging the wine ?
Kyle Risi: And so by the end of the competition he had won gold for this 2 euro 50 bottle of wine that he just picked up at the supermarket proving that it's all just buzz and suggestion and that these professionals don't really know what they're talking about.
Kyle Risi: That's
Adam Cox: crazy so a 2 dollar 50 or 2 euro 50 wine and it's got this kind of recognition. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Should they not do like a blind taste test that feels like what should happen and not have a backstory or a sob story for wine?
Kyle Risi: It is not X factor , it feels like it's not Pop Idol or
Adam Cox: Pop Idol or American Idol.
Adam Cox: You wanna sell this wine, it needs a sob story. . Yeah.
Kyle Risi: So that's essentially what's happened and, and you're right, like it should be completely blind. But what they do is they submit it with a label so they can judge it on that. They hear about the buzz and the hype about the wine. They see the marketing, all this crap.
Kyle Risi: All this time it's two euros fifty. So how many other bottles of wine that win these competitions are just pish? Essentially,
Adam Cox: well, we'll never know. ,
Kyle Risi: So, that's all the latest things for this week.
Adam Cox: Okay, so, our story today starts with David Krupa in the 90s, David had dated a girl named Amy Flora for a number of years. They got together at a fairly young age and had two kids together. But as time went on, things started to impact their relationship, they had different work patterns, which meant they barely got to see each other.
Adam Cox: And as a result, they drifted apart, and they decided that the best thing for them was to split, and that was in the year 2000. Amy decided she wanted to move to Omaha in Nebraska, and for David, he had never been there, but wanted to continue to be a good dad and, you know, an active dad in his kid's life.
Adam Cox: Uh, so he agreed that he would move there, uh, and continue to be, yeah, a good role model. David would have to rebuild his life in an unfamiliar place, but despite that uncertainty, he was open to a new chapter of his life and a challenge. He got his own place landed a job as a mechanic. Whilst he would spend time with his kids as much as he could at the weekends, he also enjoyed being single again and at the age of 35, it meant he had this renewed freedom and he was a bachelor.
Adam Cox: And he wanted to And he wanted to enjoy being single for a while and not settle down with anyone, he'd done the whole commitment thing, he was ready to have some fun.
Kyle Risi: And, yeah, because the whole commitment thing didn't really work out for him the first time. So I get it.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and I guess if he's been in a long term relationship for a long period of time, he perhaps never did the dating thing as much in his early 20s.
Kyle Risi: Sure, true.
Adam Cox: So, so, David, uh, like a lot of singletons back then in the early noughties, he joined Plenty of Fish, which we just, uh, Poff! Poff. Is that what it was called?
Kyle Risi: Yeah, because it's Plenty of Fish, P O V, and people just go, oh, sorry, P O F, P O V, P O F, point of view, P O F, so people would go Poff. Oh, Mon Poff. Mon Poff.
Kyle Risi: I only know that because we have a friend, uh, , and she, P Met one of her first partners on Poff. I remember when she was like doing the circuit on Poff.
Adam Cox: The circuit on Poff. Doing the rounds.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, that was like a good 15 years ago, wasn't it? No way.
Adam Cox: no
Adam Cox: One talks about Plenty of Fish.
Adam Cox: Is that still going? It probably is.
Kyle Risi: No, I think it's all been replaced by the algorithm.
Adam Cox: The algorithm. Apps. Tinder. Um, So yeah, if you wanted to find someone and you didn't want to do that just, you know, in a bar or out in public, then you'd go online to Plenty of Fish. This website was pretty much one of the first ones, as we said, back at the time.
Adam Cox: He set up a dating profile and patiently sat waiting for those women to line up wanting to date him. But of course, that's not quite how it goes. He has to wait a little bit, but it only takes a couple of days before he gets his first message. Uh, and why does it only take
Kyle Risi: a couple of days?
Kyle Risi: Do they only release a certain number of messages
Adam Cox: just didn't get any interest in the first couple of days. Oh, okay. So it just took a little time for someone to message back or respond to his new profile.
Kyle Risi: Okay, sorry. I just, I'm so suspicious that I just assumed like someone was fiddling with something in the back end near Poff.
Adam Cox: Uh, well currently you don't have to be suspicious. Okay. I'll tell you when you Need to be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Um, so the first woman to really speak to him online was a lady called Liz Golia. They initially chatted back and forth online, uh, and to David, Liz seemed pretty cool.
Adam Cox: She was down to earth. Uh, she's into stuff that he likes, like sci fi, sci fi, heavy metal, uh, she even had her own motorcycle, she liked animals, she had two dogs, a cat, as well as a big snake, and she was a single parent, so quite a bit in common, um, they were both lonely, and so it seemed like a good match, they hit it off, and they agreed to go on a date.
Kyle Risi: What's her name?
Adam Cox: Liz Golia.
Kyle Risi: Well, I'm really intrigued to find out who, like, the perpetrator is here. Well.
Kyle Risi: Is it him
Adam Cox: or is it her? Ooh. You'll find out. Oh no,
Kyle Risi: it's him, isn't it? No, it's not him. I don't know. Carry on.
Adam Cox: Yeah, the point is, you shouldn't know right at this point.
Kyle Risi: I shouldn't?
Adam Cox: No.
Kyle Risi: Okay, good.
Adam Cox: Um, so Dave's pretty nervous leading up to the date. It's his first date in a while and Liz is really smiley, lots of energy, just giving off a really good vibe to Dave.
Adam Cox: Mm hmm. And Dave was pretty up front though, he said he wasn't looking for anything too serious, just dates, maybe some fun, And that worked for Liz, cause that's exactly what she was looking for at that time.
Kyle Risi: I mean, that's what women always say, but really they're like, Picking that China patterns.
Adam Cox: Uh, maybe. They gotta play
Kyle Risi: it cool, you know. They can't scare the man off. China patterns.
Adam Cox: Dave now has, someone to chat to and hang out with and go on some casual dates. But still have plenty of personal space to be a good dad and everything else that he wanted to do. Things were going well, and just what he needed at that time in his life, and they dated for a while, and all was good.
Adam Cox: About six months later, along comes Carrie Farver, the soon to be other woman in David's life. She was a customer at the garage he worked at as a mechanic, and they smiled and flirted one day. And that was that, thought Dave, just an attractive young woman in her twenties. That, uh, came into his work, some harmless flirting, and he wouldn't see her again.
Adam Cox: But it only took a couple of weeks before she would then pop up on Plenty of Fish. Dave instantly recognised her and thought he had nothing to lose. He reaches out and says, Hey, I know you. And she messages back to say, yeah, I know you too. And things went from there. They chatted some more and they agreed to go on a date. David and Carrie shared stories about their childhoods, uh, where they grew up. Both had children from previous relationships.
Adam Cox: Carrie had a son but had gone back to college to study and she was into computers, which set her apart from a lot of other. A lot of other women that David had spoken to, uh, because it's pretty uncommon to come across someone tech savvy and that was also very attractive. She's
Kyle Risi: like a gamer girl.
Adam Cox: Yeah, a little bit like that.
Adam Cox: To David, he thought she was way To David, he thought she was way out of his league, but there was no better time to ask her to go back to his place as their date was coming to an end. And she luckily said yes.
Kyle Risi: Ooh, she wants some coffee.
Adam Cox: Go Dave.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, go Dave. Go Dave.
Adam Cox: Get some coffee.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, what if he only just wants coffee?
Kyle Risi: Well, that's fine. Yeah, but she's expecting like Latte.
Kyle Risi: Exactly .
Adam Cox: Well, good thing that she says to him that, Hey, I'm not looking for anything serious. You know, I'm not looking for a monogamous relationship. This is just coffee. This is just coffee. Just latte . Just latte. , what
Kyle Risi: is latte? What as a sex move? What is latte? I mean, black coffee would be obviously one in the stink. But what would a latte
Adam Cox: be? Um, I don't know. It feels very vanilla, very milky. Maybe some foreplay. Do you reckon? Yeah, a bit of latte.
Kyle Risi: Well, I wouldn't say like vanilla is, um, foreplay. Well, I feel like it's probably I would just say vanilla is just foreplay.
Kyle Risi: Missionary sex and that's it. No foreplay.
Adam Cox: Well, I don't know. Arte is foreplay. Okay. Cappuccino, you're stepping up a gear.
Kyle Risi: To what?
Adam Cox: , missionary.
Kyle Risi: Stepping up as missionary!
Adam Cox: What?! There's a whole host of coffees, Kyle. Just getting started.
Kyle Risi: What?
Adam Cox: Why are we talking about
Kyle Risi: this?
Kyle Risi: Back to the story. Right, they're having coffee.
Adam Cox: Anyway, so they arrive at Dave's place and they're barely in the door when his buzzer goes and, weirdly, it's Liz. She'd been trying to get hold of Dave, actually, for a while to collect some stuff from his apartment.
Adam Cox: So it was super awkward for David and the timing couldn't be any worse . That's That's
Kyle Risi: the end of them.
Adam Cox: Yeah, well, um,
Adam Cox: yeah, well, for Dave, he, you know, he was up front with Liz about his intentions, it wasn't really serious, but it still doesn't look great, it's a bit awkward. Yeah, but you don't rub it in someone's face, though. Yeah, it's just a bit awkward, isn't it? Yeah,
Kyle Risi: for sure. You can't get past that.
Adam Cox: So the two women briefly meet, Carrie decides it's a good idea that she probably should just leave, makes her way out.
Adam Cox: And Liz steps in, she gets her stuff, and she quickly leaves. And that's that. It's all fine, to be fair. Um, but Dave thinks to call Carrie back to say, Hey, Liz is gone. Does she want to come back over? And she's like, Well, I'm halfway home. And she lived in Macedonia, which is a tiny town across the border in Ohio.
Adam Cox: So I guess it's just, a bit of a journey to come all the way back. Okay,
Kyle Risi: so not to Europe then?
Adam Cox: Not to Europe, no. And Day's like, well, I'll come to you then. And she's like, fine, yeah, come over. And, um, yeah, he goes over. At least
Kyle Risi: drink the buzzer!
Adam Cox: No, this time he makes it over and they have latte. Maybe more than that.
Adam Cox: And so. Cappuccino. Uh, Uh, Plenty of Fish was proving to be a winner for Dave. He's, you know, found a few. He's met two
Kyle Risi: women. Yeah. Got himself a latte.
Adam Cox: But it's not all about latte. Um, they spend lots of time talking and it turns out Carrie works close to Dave. Um, and so it meant that they could just easily see each other during the week, just go for a drink and, you know, catch up and chat.
Adam Cox: One day she stays over and he gets up and, you know, have a good time. So So one day she stays over, uh, uh, they get up, they both get ready to leave for work, and he gives her a good bye kiss at the door. And the day continues to be like any normal day, but then he gets a text message from Carrie a few hours later asking, Dave, do you want to move in with me? What?
Adam Cox: Yeah, and this is only after like a few weeks. Dave's like, uh, like, uh, no, this wasn't where things were supposed to go.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, this is just latte and not serious anything.
Adam Cox: Yeah, things weren't supposed to get this involved. Um, so he politely declines and Carrie seems to take it to heart and perhaps She
Kyle Risi: seemed so cool up until this point.
Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly. Um, and Maybe Dave didn't realize she was into him more than he was into her, perhaps? Right. Um, she responds, Fine. I hate you. I'm dating someone else. I don't want to see you anymore. Go away.
Kyle Risi: What? I mean, she's clearly butthurt because she wanted to move in like like five minutes ago.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and, She instantly gives him the cold shoulder, um, and Dave's like trying to placate things and just gets this barrage of text messages back, uh, that says that she would make his life hell and destroy him.
Kyle Risi: Or because
Adam Cox: he wouldn't move in with her. So things have turned sour pretty quickly. Yeah,
Kyle Risi: major red
Adam Cox: flag.
Adam Cox: Dave is shocked, uh, we all are, and he thought Who's we? Well, us two, we're shocked as well. Are we shocked?
Kyle Risi: Yes!
Adam Cox: Uh,
Adam Cox: Uh, and he thought like he knew her well enough to know that she wouldn't do this, but you know, perhaps it was still early on and he just had to like put it behind her, he just had to put it behind him, it was early days and just move on.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and just go back to Liz. Go back to Liz. Yeah. Uh, he gets on with his life for a few days, um, when Carrie starts sending him more texts again and increasingly becomes more aggressive and Dave is like, whoa, what has happened? Why are you harassing me?
Kyle Risi: Yeah, so she's the perp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Cox: Well, Dave tries to ignore these messages as best as possible and just get on with life, but within a few days, he's at work, uh, when the local sheriff turns up at the garage and asks to speak to him about Carrie, and at first he's like, very stern with Dave, revealing that Carrie's supposedly missing and suspects Dave being her boyfriend has something to do with it.
Kyle Risi: But they're not.
Adam Cox: Well, Dave quickly defends himself and is like, No, hang on a second. Carrie is fine. I'm getting all these messages. She's harassing me. She, and he shows the sheriff all these nasty messages that he's been receiving for the past few weeks. And the sheriff quickly sees, Oh, this is just some messy breakup.
Adam Cox: Yeah, domestic. You know, whatever. This will probably just blow over and, you know, leaves it at that. And as for Carrie, and as for Carrie, uh, well,
Adam Cox: people had heard from her, Including her mum. She'd been sending her happy Mother's Day messages. And she just needed a bit of time because perhaps she wasn't handling this breakup that well.
Adam Cox: When you think, , just when you think things can't get any more bizarre, Mm hmm. Liz, the other woman David was dating, shows up one day out of the blue. Now, she hasn't seen David or spoke to him for a while, um, because things just naturally cooled between them. Um, when Dave sees her, um, she's visibly shaken, um, when
Kyle Risi: Oh no.
Adam Cox: And she says to him, Someone's keyed my car, and worse yet, reveals that Carrie has managed to track her down and she's started to receive abuse from Carrie over text and email.
Kyle Risi: Really? How did she get her number and her email address? Damn.
Adam Cox: Yeah, she is So
Kyle Risi: she obviously also knows where she lives then, if she's keyed her car.
Kyle Risi: Obviously depending on where it's been keyed.
Adam Cox: Well yeah, we know Carrie was quite interested in computers, so perhaps it doesn't, you know, perhaps she knows how to do this sort of thing.
Kyle Risi: Ah, yes, of
Adam Cox: course. So what started out as something pretty innocent and mutual between David and Carrie is quickly turning sour.
Adam Cox: The story just gets even more bizarre. But before I get into that though, I think now's a good time to take a quick break. And when we get back, I will tell you just how things heat up between Carrie, Liz and David.
Kyle Risi: Let's do
Adam Cox: it.
So Dave has just rejected Kerry After she asked Him to move in and since then she's just been hounding him non stop with threats and harassment and all sorts, like loads of text messages, loads of emails and now we've got Liz back on the scene.
Kyle Risi: . And she's also now being harassed by Kerry as well. So this crazy woman is like, flinging red flags everywhere, man.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and she's keyed Liz's car.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, so like, how much crazier does it get?
Adam Cox: Well, I will tell you. Uh, Carrie would initially send these messages to Liz and Dave from her phone, of course.
Adam Cox: Uh, anyone that gets any harassment even if it's like a spam number or whatever, you can block those numbers and that's what Dave does .
Adam Cox: Okay. Um, but that didn't stop Carrie, uh, because she would find or get hold of other numbers, uh, and would just start sending even more abusive messages. Yeah. And so he was struggling to keep on top of all these numbers and abuse messages from, from Carrie because there's probably like five, ten different phones that she would end up texting from.
Adam Cox: And then there's emails as well to answer that. Even creepier, Dave would get texts whilst he was at work and the messages from Carrie would describe the customers he was speaking to. So she was close by and spying on him .
Kyle Risi: but she didn't work that far
Adam Cox: away anyway, right? Yeah. Oh yeah, well that would make sense, yeah.
Kyle Risi: Um, Um, how far away does she work? Oh yeah, across the street, the dollar store.
Adam Cox: No, she, uh, worked close to his address, not close to his work. so sorry. But it's still probably pretty close.
Kyle Risi: Sure, yeah, yeah. So she's spying.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and she would even do it when he was taking his kids out to dinner, which was really concerning for Dave, as this was a time with his kids, something he most definitely didn't want to get them involved with.
Today's life is now a blend of paranoia and disbelief. One moment he's a regular guy fixing cars, the next he's knee deep in a situation that's got him questioning what's going on. What's real. stress of it really starts to take its toll, and despite reporting it to the police, the police can't seem to find where Carrie is.
Adam Cox: And she hasn't done anything, I guess, seriously enough wrong at this point, apart from just sending some, you know, abusive or nasty messages. Carrie then reveals today, via her message, that she's now living only a couple of buildings away from him. Why would
Kyle Risi: you tell him that though? Well,
Adam Cox: I guess just to freak him out, saying like, hey, you can't get rid of me.
Adam Cox: , so this just means he's always looking over his shoulder, trying to work out where she could be spying on him from, knowing that she's a few blocks away.
Kyle Risi: the time when you have these people that are sending these harassing text messages, Their emotions are all over the place.
Kyle Risi: One minute they're like, I really want to get back together. Could we have a future together? And then the next thing they're blowing up again. And then they're like, I hate you. You're evil. Um, I'm going to get you. I'm stalking you. And then they feel bad. And then they try to like, kind of.
Kyle Risi: Making men's again . Do we know what kind of like messages are being sent here? And does she want to be with him?
Adam Cox: Well, I think the majority seem to be just abusive and like saying I know where you are and stuff like that I think at this point She isn't trying to get back with him.
Kyle Risi: Really? It's bizarre. From what I know
Adam Cox: anyway from the research that I've done Yeah, you know, this is the compendium
Kyle Risi: But
Kyle Risi: would think that like, if this behaviour was going on, you obviously care enough because you like the guy, right, and you're just upset because you're, it's not being reciprocated.
Adam Cox: Yeah, but does, do you really think that she has any chance in getting him back when she's shown true colours?
Kyle Risi: No, but, but then, but the point of it is that she's going to try and like, there doesn't seem to be a sense that she is trying as well with amongst the harassment. Because like I said, your emotions would be all over the place.
Kyle Risi: One minute you're trying to kind of like, butter him up again and then you just blow up again because like, it's not going your way. Do you understand what I mean? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I
Adam Cox: Yeah, I see what you're saying. And I think the next message that he receives from her. It might indicate where her head's at.
Kyle Risi: Okay.
Adam Cox: So, um, he gets a photo this time, and the photo is from within Liz's house, so Carrie has broken into Liz's house, and, um, yeah, you know, Dave knows it straight away, and that's made him really concerned because she's now with him.
Adam Cox: Well, he, he files a report to the police, but nothing can be done quick enough to bring Carrie down. And Dave feels really awful for Liz. She's getting caught up in all of this mess, um, just for dating Dave. Uh, and she's also her mother, remember? So her child was having to deal with this jelly And she's a mother, remember, so her child has to deal with these jealous, almost violent, uh, acts.
Adam Cox: Um, and that's no doubt taken a toll on the whole family too. Sure. But Dave wanted to protect Liz as much as possible and he couldn't help having feelings for her again. They kind of bonded over this because they were both sort of, I guess, under this stress. Uh, he tried to support her through this and there, they become closer and they rekindle things for a little while.
Adam Cox: You Carrie, being the super stalker that she is, of course finds out what's going on between them. And clearly you can't keep anything from this woman. Carrie now breaks into Dave's apartment and over the top of the bed, in lipstick, writes, Go away, whore.
Kyle Risi: Uh, a little message for Liz. Exactly.
Adam Cox: And then some clothes that belonged to Liz that were still, I don't know, she left them in his apartment, uh, they were slashed with a knife.
Kyle Risi: Okay. Is it time for Wild Assertions.
Adam Cox: Depends. Okay. Is Liz Kerry. That's an interesting observation.
Kyle Risi: Because how did she get into Liz's apartment? .
Adam Cox: Was she broken?
Kyle Risi: Yeah. I don't know. Okay. And then also getting into the, getting, Kerry getting into Dave's apartment. That's something that Liz could easily do.
Kyle Risi: So it makes sense that they might be the same person or they know each other or they're working in cahoots
Adam Cox: with each other. Um, if you break into one apartment, you can break into another one. Probably .
Kyle Risi: And why did Liz so happen to show up on their date? What I reckon, tell me how accurate I am. Okay. Is that Liz has been pursuing Dave and she's the actual psycho and what's, and she's the one who's sending all these text messages pretending to be.
Kyle Risi: Now Kerry does exist, but she's not the one sending all the messages and stuff. And how about that she actually sent Kerry on Plenty of Fish to test him. Hence why she showed up on the night of their date.
Adam Cox: Well, all very good theories.
Adam Cox: , I'm gonna throw another spanner in the works. Okay. Which might, , change that theory.
Adam Cox: so Liz's house is set on fire.
Kyle Risi: Well, I mean, she's crazy, so she would set herself on, she would set her own house on fire.
Adam Cox: Maybe, , I mean Liz is fine, and her child, um, I think it's her daughter, . Um, they weren't harmed, but Liz's pets, her two dogs, her cat, and her pet snake all die in the fire.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, crazy.
Adam Cox: So you'd have to be pretty twisted to be able to do that.
Kyle Risi: I'm still standing by it. Okay. Oh god!
Adam Cox: Carry on! So, this is getting pretty serious now. Dave gets an email from Carrie admitting it was her who set the house on fire. She said, I'm not lying, I set that nasty whore's house on fire. I hope the whore and her kids die in it.
Kyle Risi: Wow. The
Adam Cox: police are still, the police still can't bring Carrie to justice, considering they now have evidence that she has committed arson. Yeah. And they're going to delve into sort of,
Adam Cox: okay, fine, actually. Yeah, the police are unable to bring Carrie to justice, considering they now have evidence that she has committed arson. Um, some time passes and Dave tries to move on as best he can. He gets a new house and things come to a natural end with Liz. Yeah. He gets a new number and just tries to sever ties with Kari as much as possible.
Adam Cox: And for a while, it works. He goes back to dating sites and he casually dates or chats with a particular or different woman. Um, he goes, and it works, and he goes back, and it works. And he eventually goes back to dating sites and casually chats with different women. Things are going well and he sets up a few dates.
Adam Cox: On one particular date, uh, Dave arrives and he grabs a drink waiting for his date to arrive. An hour goes past and he realises, an hour goes past and he realises he's probably been stood up.
Kyle Risi: Oh, do you think like they showed up, they saw him and they
Kyle Risi: left? Why do people keep saying that?
Adam Cox: And then before he gets a chance to leave, he gets a message from his date.
Adam Cox: And based on the tone and what's said, it's clearly obvious to Dave that this woman he's speaking to is in fact Carrie. Somehow he, somehow she has got hold of his new number and got Her way back into his life.
Kyle Risi: Wow.
Adam Cox: She is relentless. Yeah, she's psycho, man. And poor Dave. Yeah, he's fallen for the trap again
Kyle Risi: So, how's he gonna escape this? That's the thing. What can you do? What can you do? He's gonna need to get someone to arrest her. Well, yeah. That's the
Adam Cox: only way. He needs to get some hard evidence and I don't know get the police to do their job Because currently they're not doing it.
Kyle Risi: But the thing is that there seems like there's a lot of evidence already Like all the harassing text messages all like The fact that , there's evidence that she broke into his house, there was lipstick on the, on the window.
Kyle Risi: Also broke into his ex girlfriend's house as well, or Liz's house. Like, that must be enough.
Adam Cox: You should pick up with the sheriff.
Kyle Risi: This is, do you know what this is? This is baby reindeer all over again. Because that's what happened with him. They just didn't believe him. And they were like, hang on, wait.
Kyle Risi: Someone's, someone's stalking you. What, a woman? That's what happened. And then he was like, yeah, it's like, they made out as if he should be so lucky.
Adam Cox: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's probably a similar sort of sentiment at that point, that the police perhaps just didn't take it seriously enough.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, because men don't get stalked, men don't get attacked, or women can't be abusers or perpetrators.
Adam Cox: Yeah. And so, um, things with Liz as well, um, that's kind of cooled down now because, Carrie's probably scared her off because why would you stick around in this situation? Um, Carrie then turns her attention to Amy , so that's Dave's ex and mother of his kids.
Kyle Risi: Oh god.
Adam Cox: She starts sending abuse to her, telling her to stay away from Dave and even threatening to harm their children.
Adam Cox: Uh.
Kyle Risi: I mean, uh, we have kids together. Um, yeah, I'm not gonna stay away from him.
Adam Cox: Yeah, there's no way I can keep out of his life.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, exactly.
Adam Cox: Psycho. Psycho bitch. And also, uh, the son that they have got, well, he gets pretty scared and wants to protect his mum, and so he sleeps with a baseball bat, which I think is quite sad.
Adam Cox: A young boy sleeping with a baseball bat.
Kyle Risi: Hey man, I grew up in South Africa. I slept with a baseball bat. Bloody, like, a Stanley knife under my pillow.
Adam Cox: No, you didn't. Well, actually, you might have done, but you probably stole it. What? What does that even mean? The plains of South Africa.
Kyle Risi: We're not, like, uh, we're not a tribe of thieves.
Adam Cox: . I know, I know, I'm joking, I'm joking. Anyway, so this poor kid, he sounds like he's pretty traumatised from this whole ordeal. Carrie had said to her mum that she had moved away for a job, if you remember, and that she needed some space.
Adam Cox: And when the police look into the allegations about her, they obviously draw together that she has, well, she's a jealous ex, and that she had in the past had, uh, medication for bipolar, and perhaps that she'd stopped taking her medication, and therefore her erratic and aggressive behaviour was down to her mental health, and that's why she was acting out in this way.
Adam Cox: Right, I see. There is some, uh, rationale now, now that the police are doing a better job, but her mom, she just wants her home safe to get the treatment that she needs. But what she couldn't explain is her apartment was left in a pretty peculiar way. A lot of her stuff was left as it was, um, like she just popped out for the day.
Adam Cox: Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, not that she'd moved into a whole new place. So something just didn't add up and the police seemed pretty useless, uh, up until this point in helping Dave and Liz , and Carrie's mother. That was until a couple of detectives, Jim and Ryan from County Sheriff's Office picked up Carrie's case.
Adam Cox: And from speaking to Carrie's mum and doing lots of more digging, they begin to unravel the case and find out there's much, much more complex. And they find out there's much, much more to it than anyone anticipated. And so they did. And so they needed to bring in a guy that could dive into all the digital breadcrumbs that could lead to Carrie.
Adam Cox: And so this, guy, he's a digital forensic specialist called Anthony Carver. He works in the IT department, uh, was also a volunteer for the Sheriff's Office as a deputy. And he's a bit of a character. He lives off meal replacement products, uh, and hummus, , and he openly talks about being on the spectrum, which he says aids his work because his regimented routines, uh, allows him to look for patterns in data and kind of sees things that stick out from the norm.
Kyle Risi: Okay, sounds like he takes extreme pride in being like, Oh, I'm not like other guys. I eat hummus. I eat hummus and meal replacements. I mean, it's chickpeas and meal replacements anyway.
Adam Cox: I mean, this was before Huel, so I don't know what kind of meal replacements there were back then.
Kyle Risi: Oh, no, I used to drink meal replacements when I was a kid.
Kyle Risi: So they've been around.
Adam Cox: Oh, okay. Yeah. So when, um, Carver, this guy, uh, forensic guy started working on the case, he had to go through hundreds and thousands of emails and texts over a two year period. Uh, and this task was to figure out where the messages were coming from. Mm hmm. Uh, and that would all help them locate Carrie.
Adam Cox: So an obvious place to start was looking at a person's IP address. Um, but what's quickly apparent is that the IP addresses vary a lot, which suggests that maybe it was Carrie sending these messages From a VPN to hide her real location.
Kyle Risi: You mean via a VPN? via
Adam Cox: a VPN, sorry. Um, And that would make sense, because she's trying to cover her track, she doesn't want to get caught for the harassment.
Adam Cox: And she's a gamer
Kyle Risi: girl, so she knows how it's done. Yeah,
Adam Cox: and you know. She's not an idiot. Exactly, she doesn't want to get caught. So Carver creates a computer program, which in some ways is a bit like AI. He would ask it questions about the data to try and find patterns or information that stood out. As there were thousands and thousands of IP addresses. To sift through. So firstly, he needs to find out how many were unique and there's about 13, 000.
Kyle Risi: Wow.
Adam Cox: Yeah, a lot. He then looks at what the top 10 common IP addresses were . And And the majority he can detect are from VPN service providers, which means that that data is pretty useless.
Adam Cox: He can't really detect where it's from. But the top address that is used most can be located to an actual place. It's connected to a house in Iowa, and it was connected to a guy called Todd Butterbur. B
Kyle Risi: Butterbur? Butterbur,
Adam Cox: B Butterbur.
Kyle Risi: Butterbur? You sound like Moira from, from Shit's Creek. That's what I thought.
Kyle Risi: Say it again. Unintentional.
Adam Cox: Todd Butterbur.
Adam Cox: Um. Good.
Kyle Risi: Um, so, spell the name?
Adam Cox: Uh, Butter. Yeah. B-A-U-G-H butter. B butter butter
Kyle Risi: ball. Okay. I see what you're saying. I think how I pronounce it was just fine. It was fine. I was just like, what kind of word is that? I thought you were saying butter ball.
Adam Cox: Butter ball. . I'm, I'm just gonna call him Todd. So the, so this IP address, it's connected to a guy called Todd.
Adam Cox: Mm-Hmm . And he works at Potter Whatami
Adam Cox: County Sheriff's Office. It's basically where they are.
Kyle Risi: Oh!
Adam Cox: So he works at the Sheriff's office? He works at the Sheriff's office. Interesting. Plot twist. Mmm. Uh, and That's why the Sheriff's not doing anything. Well, not only does he work at that office, Anthony Carver, the IT guy, he's his boss. Shit! So what the hell is going on?
Adam Cox: Because his employee is now a suspect in this case.
Kyle Risi: Yeah, Well, he must have done it. Did the boss say, yeah, I need you to take on this case and investigate it? Thinking like, oh, he's so incompetent. He's not gonna be able to kind of crack the case and he's cracked it.
Adam Cox: Well. Oh, he's incriminating him. No, no, Carver is the boss. It's his, like, under him. That's Todd.
Kyle Risi: Oh, hang on. So Carver's the boss. Yeah. He's the one.
Adam Cox: He's the forensic guy.
Kyle Risi: Okay, and he has a subordinate.
Adam Cox: Yeah. Oh,
Kyle Risi: okay. I'm
Adam Cox: with you. Okay. His subordinate, Todd. Is yeah, it's it's him. So
Kyle Risi: he's probably sitting at his desk shaking in his boots going.
Kyle Risi: Oh my god. Oh my god They're working on this. He's gonna they're gonna catch me that actually to be fair. We don't even know what Todd's done yet
Adam Cox: We don't know how is he involved? So it's totally unexpected of course So they have to give Todd a search warrant to search his place and they're quite concerned as Todd studied at MIT Uh, which is Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Adam Cox: So he's smart as well. Exactly. Um, he's very, very smart. You have to basically pay, I think, 80, 000 a year or get a scholarship in order to get into this place.
Kyle Risi: Yeah. I know MIT.
Adam Cox: You know MIT. I'm
Kyle Risi: not
Adam Cox: stupid. I know it. Well, I'm just letting our other listeners know. Okay. So the point is, they had to tread very carefully, because this guy was very smart, um.
Adam Cox: Why? So you have to tread carefully because he's smart? Well, they're going to go about their work to try and go undetected, because maybe he's spying on what they're doing. Right, I see. So they have
Kyle Risi: to be very careful. Oh, okay. I get it.
Adam Cox: So how is Todd connected to this case?
Adam Cox: Well, it turns out he has an on and off again relationship with a woman who sometimes would live at his place. Her name is Liz Golia. So every message that had been sent to Dave, to Carrie's mum, to Dave's ex Amy, were all from Liz. Not Carrie. She was the one behind it all.
Kyle Risi: What did I tell ya?
Adam Cox: When did I tell ya?
Adam Cox: When did I tell ya? And what did I say? So, now feels like a good mini cliffhanger to take a break. And when we'll come back, I'll tell you just exactly what Liz has been doing all along. Ooh,
Kyle Risi: gasp.
Kyle Risi: So, we're back. And, what we've just found out is that I was kinda right. You were kinda right. Kinda right! So, Liz has been pretending Woah, well Liz has been sending messages pretending to be Kerry to Dave all of these months. Hang on, that means that Liz potentially set fire to her own house and killed her own pets.
Adam Cox: What a
Kyle Risi: bitch!
Adam Cox: Yep, that's right. What does
Kyle Risi: she have against us? She had a dog, she had a cat. She had a snake. . She also threatened to kill her own kids. I hope your kids die.
Adam Cox: Yeah, , well, she's broken, oh, she, uh, air quotes, broke into her place and like, you know, trashed it. She did that. Well,
Kyle Risi: those are easy things to do.
Adam Cox: Yeah, that's true. She did that to Dave's place. She wrote graffiti on the wall. Easy things to do as well. She keyed her own car and made it and said it was Carrie. Yeah. Well, this is what we know at this stage, at least.
Kyle Risi: Interesting. Okay. How does it evolve from here?
Adam Cox: Well, everything is pointing towards that it was Liz, and if this is the case, this probably meant that Carrie, well, seeing as no one has heard or seen her properly in several years now, she's probably dead, and she'd been getting the blame for all these actions this entire time.
Kyle Risi: Hang on. Pause there. Pause there.
Kyle Risi: Several years?
Adam Cox: Several years.
Kyle Risi: But he did go on a date with a Kerry?
Adam Cox: But the harassment and all the messages have been going on and off for a couple of years now.
Kyle Risi: Okay,
Adam Cox: So far, police can only prove that Liz was impersonating Carrie. So they look at Liz's phone around the time that Carrie went missing and managed to get some photos and downloads and all sorts that was missed by the original investigations. One of the photos on Liz's phone was a photo of Carrie's car taken on Christmas Eve of 2012.
Adam Cox: The car itself was not recovered until January the 8th. So what happened during this holiday period? The assumption is, is probably when. The assumption is, this is when Carrie went
Kyle Risi: missing. Wow.
Adam Cox: Looking through the report of, looking through the report of the car at the time it was found, a fingerprint was identified, but no one could link it to anyone until now.
Adam Cox: That fingerprint, you guessed it, belonged to Liz. I didn't guess that. Oh, well.
Kyle Risi: I was going to say Dave. So yeah, Liz. Crazy.
Adam Cox: Yeah, uh, they can at least now say that she was in the car around that time.
Kyle Risi: Okay.
Adam Cox: But still, there is no hard evidence to pin this on Liz yet. So the police put a tracker on Liz's car and they find that she's spying on Dave's ex Amy's house with her kids on a daily basis. Wow. Just circling her house every day. Doesn't she not have a job? Liz, uh, you'd think so, right? Because how is she funding her stalking habit?
Adam Cox: I don't know, and she's definitely not living with Todd anymore, right? No, not at this point as far as I'm aware. Okay. Okay
Adam Cox: but she, I guess, starts to suspect that things perhaps aren't going the way that she thought they would or, um, the way that she had planned. Mm hmm. So, in a move that's half genius, half bonkers, decides the best way to deflect guilt is to literally take a bullet. Yep. Oh no, she shot herself. She shoots herself.
Adam Cox: Where? Did she shoot herself?
Adam Cox: Well, not to frame Carrie this time, Well, Carrie's dead, apparently. Well, yeah, but obviously no one knows her at this point. She's dead. for sure. She's now trying to, uh, pin this on Amy.
Kyle Risi: What?!
Adam Cox: And if that's not commitment to a lie, I don't know what is.
Kyle Risi: So how is Amy supposed to have shot her? Well,
Adam Cox: the police get a call from Liz saying that been shot in the thigh at a park by another woman. Oh,
Kyle Risi: a thigh, that's so obvious,
Adam Cox: that's so obvious. Anyone can shoot you. Shoot
Kyle Risi: yourself in like, in the gallbladder or something like that, yeah.
Kyle Risi: Not the thigh, people, that's the obvious place you're gonna shoot yourself.
Adam Cox: Well, yeah, but Liz tries to pin this on Amy, saying she was jealous of Dave getting too close to Liz, and even suggests that Amy, she's the one that probably murdered Carrie. Wow. So based on Liz's statement at the scene, police go to Amy's house and Amy says that when she answered her door to find the police standing at her door with guns pointed at her.
Adam Cox: So they take this allegation very seriously from Liz and she'd been at home with her two year old son and officers noticed her car was cold to the touch and indicated she hadn't been anywhere recently. And so they begin to realise that something is up with Liz's story. So the police try to use this to their advantage and decide to go along with Liz's wild theory in a hope that she might mess up and reveal a vital clue by mistake.
Adam Cox: Okay. So the police convince Liz they are to So the police convince Liz that they are taking her allegations seriously about Amy. So Liz is like, uh huh, yeah, they bought my plan. And she forwards over some messages that she supposedly received from Amy saying, I shot you in the park because you wouldn't keep away from Dave.
Adam Cox: Ha!
Kyle Risi: It's very, very blatant, isn't
Adam Cox: it? That's what all attempted
Adam Cox: murderers do. They make sure they put that in writing.
Kyle Risi: Idiot!
Adam Cox: So the police are like, okay, yeah, sure. Thanks so much, Liz. This is great. This will really help us nail Amy. Of course, whilst this is happening, Dave and Amy are pretty scared for themselves and their family.
Adam Cox: And if Liz is willing to shoot herself, and probably kill Carrie, then what chance do they have? It's true actually, shit. And what's riskier yet, the police wanted to get Dave and Amy to draw Liz out further. And so they lead Liz to believe, through a recorded conversation with Dave, that Dave's moved back in with Amy to protect his family.
Kyle Risi: Oh, that's gonna drive Liz mental!
Adam Cox: Yep, she blows up. She complains to the police. How is Amy not arrested yet? She gets to kill another person, to kill me, and then she gets to move back in with her ex? She is fuming. Wow. And this means that the cracks in her plan and her behaviour are really beginning to show now, just like the police had planned.
Adam Cox: So they then go on to say to her, you know, if Amy did reveal to you some more specifics about um, what happened to you or Carrie, then we could totally use that against her. So this gives Liz some food for thought, and it doesn't take long for good ol Liz to be ever so helpful in getting some details out of Amy on how she killed Carrie.
Adam Cox: Shit!
Kyle Risi: So I see what they're doing here, they're gonna try and see if they can get some information from Liz that only Liz would know, that would then maybe turn up a body, or turn up a weapon, or like some kind of whereabouts of where Carrie is, right?
Adam Cox: Yeah, exactly that, , I guess they're thinking that maybe she's going to use some truth within these lies and find what actually happened.
Adam Cox: Uh, so she reveals a confession in an email, which I, yeah, I can't believe Liz thinks that the police are going to blow up. The police are going to buy a confession from Amy. But they're pandering
Kyle Risi: to her right now, right? And they, and they, it's coming across as if they're on her side. So, yeah, I can see how you might believe that.
Adam Cox: Yeah, . She thinks that, her plan's now working again. And she reveals in this email, um, supposedly from Amy, that there was a stabbing within Carrie's car. And so when the police learn of this, they go back to the car and they pull it apart. And on the surface of things, there's no traces of, you know, any blood or anything, anyone being stabbed in the car.
Adam Cox: Yeah. But they pull back the seat covers in the front seats.
Adam Cox: They find a blood stain. Okay. Uh, and that's soaked into the cushion of the car. So that was missed when it was first inspected because people didn't really think to look . Because they're
Kyle Risi: idiots!
Adam Cox: Yeah, I don't think the police at the time were perhaps that smart.
Adam Cox: Um, so now, um, they know that it's probably where So now they know that is where probably Carrie had died. They have evidence of Liz taking photos on her phone of her car. One drop
Kyle Risi: of
Adam Cox: blood? No, a lot of blood. Oh, it was a lot of blood.
Kyle Risi: Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay, I was gonna say, damn. Yeah,
Adam Cox: not just a pinprick. One pinprick and she's dead!
Adam Cox: Um, yeah, so there's a lot of blood that's been soaked into their car. Um, and because they have the evidence of Liz taking a photo on her phone, Uh, of the car, and her fingerprint was found within the car, they now have enough to interrogate Liz. Do it. She, of course, denies everything. But for the prosecutors, it's hard to prove a murder if you don't have a body.
Adam Cox: So the investigators go back to everyone involved in the case to try and turn over everything that perhaps would have been, you know, overlooked. Carver, the IT forensic guy, just happened to ask Dave once more, Do you have any digital devices still that you had around the time of Carrie's death, back around, you know, the end of 2012?
Kyle Risi: Like what kind of digital devices? An iPod?
Adam Cox: Yeah, camera, laptop, anything that they can just look into. With the assumption that maybe if you were with Liz at the time or whatever, maybe there's just something we can look into or something that we can track down from this.
Kyle Risi: And what kind of stuff would they be looking for, exactly?
Adam Cox: Well, um, just anything that they can kind of link back to either Carrie or Liz, essentially, in terms of messages, texts, maybe an image was sent that they've overlooked. Oh, I'm
Kyle Risi: with you. Okay.
Adam Cox: Dave does some digging and he finds an old tablet device and hands that over, and hands that over. From his recollection, there is nothing of note on that device, but it does have a memory card slot which has a micro SD card inserted into it, which I believe could be linked back to Liz.
Adam Cox: For Carver, it's worth a shot at looking at, um, what's on that card. It's been wiped clean, of course, but if you are an IT forensic person, you can look for deleted information. And so he manages to find around 10, 000 thumbnail size photographs. Um, I assume not the full image because they've, you know, been deleted, but there's like a memory of what was there.
Adam Cox: And so they have to painstakingly look through all of these thumbnails and images trying to magnify what was on those original photos.
Kyle Risi: Yep.
Adam Cox: They managed to narrow down a bunch of images that were taken around the time Carrie Goes Missing. so this limits it to about a thousand images to go through.
Adam Cox: One image that comes up looks to be an image of a foot. But like I say, the image is very small, it's not clear, but it does resemble a foot. The investigators notice that there's this marbling effect on the foot, which is what happens post mortem, and so, uh, your veins become more visible. And so it's likely that they have a picture of a dead foot or body, for sure.
Adam Cox: On this foot was a tattoo, and so they call up Carrie's mother to ask, uh, did she have any tattoos anywhere? And she, of course, reveals, yes, she did. She had a Chinese symbol for mother on her foot. And that was the final puzzle piece in this case.
Kyle Risi: Shit, so she killed her?
Adam Cox: Yeah. The fact Liz took a trophy picture of Carrie is just horrendous.
Adam Cox: That's sick. Yeah. Yeah, sick. She is one hell of a vile woman, and even though Carrie's body or remains could never be found, Liz pleads not guilty, and thankfully though, she is sentenced to life in prison in Nebraska.
Kyle Risi: So she never revealed where her body, what she did with the body?
Adam Cox: No, she denied it constantly.
Kyle Risi: That's awful. Her poor mother.
Adam Cox: And her son as well. Oh of course, and her sons, yeah.
Adam Cox: Anthony Carver estimated that Liz must have spent about 40 to 50 hours a week impersonating Carrie over the course of three years.
Kyle Risi: That's mental. That's mental.
Adam Cox: I believe the total number of texts and emails pretending to be Carrie was something like 15, 000 emails and 50, 000 text messages. Um, so yeah, that was her full time job.
Adam Cox: Damn,
Kyle Risi: I don't think my Reddit account has got that many posts or comments. Yeah, well. And that's saying something.
Adam Cox: Yeah, so she, she was invested in this. Yeah. Um, the Netflix documentary, Lover, Stalker, Killer, goes into this story in even greater detail. So that's worth a watch if you want to learn more about the case.
Adam Cox: Um, after the release of this documentary, what seems to get brought to light once again is the fact that this isn't the first time Liz might have been involved in a murder case. No. An ex boyfriend of Liz was interviewed by a U. S. newspaper and his name is Raymond Stahan. He thinks Liz was behind the death of their five month old son, Cody.
Adam Cox: Oh. Oh. Oh. Which occurred more than a decade earlier, um, to Carrie's death. And he thinks she is fully capable of hurting her son Cody, or at least getting someone else to do it and cover up the tracks. results on their child, um, suggested that he had suffered brain hemorrhage caused by vigorous shaking.
Kyle Risi: What a monster. Whatever happened to shaky baby syndrome? Do you remember that was such a big thing? Like in the late 1990s and the early noughties. You don't hear much about it anymore. Maybe just like vile parents have stopped shaking their babies.
Kyle Risi: Well, I'd
Adam Cox: hope so. Let's be glad that we don't hear about that.
Kyle Risi: But it is true, right? We used to hear about it all the time. I think so.
Adam Cox: Yeah.
Kyle Risi: Yeah. Weird. That and Acid Rain. What ever happened to Acid Rain?
Adam Cox: Yeah, that still hasn't come to fruition, right?
Kyle Risi: What do you mean?
Adam Cox: We don't get Acid Rain anymore.
Kyle Risi: Or, or if we just stop talking about it.
Kyle Risi: Have we just
Adam Cox: never got Acid Rain? I don't know. Never mind. Yeah. I guess,
Kyle Risi: I guess global warming's, uh, trumped it now, right? Yeah, that's the new
Adam Cox: thing. Um, . So just to finish this story, um, Liz also had another boyfriend called Glenn at the same time as going out with Raymond, uh, the one she had a child with, um, so she was, you know, cheating.
Adam Cox: Uh, she even moved in with Glenn, this other guy, uh, making out, um, it was just a friend that she was living with while she was pregnant with Raymond's child, which is really bizarre. Um, and she would often
Adam Cox: And she would often visit friends and would want to get, like, male attention and she was very jealous if Raymond got any attention. And Liz was around 21 at the time because her and her boyfriend, Glenn, became prime suspects in Cody's death. And her boyfriend, uh, suffers brain damage. So she, one of her boyfriends has brain damage.
Adam Cox: And he had to have hours of tough interrogations where he eventually conceded he may have shaped the baby boy to death.
Kyle Risi: Oh, yeah, but he's got like learning difficulties. Yeah. And for some reason, I don't know, maybe he did, but straight away, the way that you've said that makes me think like, the police can sometimes coerce people into confessions , through exhaustion and shit.
Adam Cox: That's exactly what the, the family of Glenn thought. They thought that they badgered him, they badgered Glenn into making a confession under these stressful circumstances.
Kyle Risi: If there's anything that doing true crime has taught us anything is that the police are ruthless when it comes to trying to get a confession out of people.
Adam Cox: Yeah, it. What's more is Liz made a call to her boyfriend Glenn at the time in distress claiming she had dropped the baby, get home. Uh, but this was shot down in court,
Adam Cox: wow. So, she, it seemed like she'd Well, so it seems like she might have been the culprit in this, and she pinned it on her boyfriend who had brain damage. And I think people believe it was her because, um, when they were at the hospital, um, the baby was taken there, um, Liz was all over , him, um, her boyfriend Glenn.
Adam Cox: So, you wouldn't do that if, uh, he had killed your child, would you? Yeah,
Kyle Risi: that's it. Yeah, you'd be like, I'm gonna kill him.
Adam Cox: Yeah, and so her boyfriend went down for eight and a half years for second degree murder. Liz was never charged for that. And people believe that he, that she manipulated Glenn.
Adam Cox: But for Carrie's family, they are left without a daughter and a mother. Carrie's mother is very thankful to the police team who brought Liz to justice, giving her some closure after all the years of just not knowing where Carrie was. Carrie also leaves behind her teenage son, Maxwell, who was taken in by his grandmother.
Adam Cox: Max attended university to gain, Max attended university gaining a degree in software engineering and data science. Following in the footsteps of his mother. That's nice. As well as getting married and he started a family himself. Carrie's mother wants people to remember her as this fun, loving, talented, smart woman that she was.
Adam Cox: She was a brilliant mother and hard worker. And that is the story of the love triangle between Dave Krupa, Liz Golia and Carrie Farther.
Kyle Risi: God, imagine
Kyle Risi: going through that much effort just to, I don't know, just for vitriol and hate and harassment. And, uh, was she ever diagnosed with anything
Adam Cox: like Not that I'm aware of. I think she is just a ruthless, cold hearted bitch. Mmm, God, that's crazy, isn't it? Mmm, Although there are studies where, this one guy, I think he committed murder, he went on like a spree of some sort. Uh, but he, uh, wrote a note before then, and he asked people to dissect his brain or like look into it because he felt something was up with him.
Adam Cox: And it turned out he had a tumour or something on his brain that potentially was on an area that might be dangerous. You know, um. You know, um.
Kyle Risi: Causing violent tendencies.
Adam Cox: Yeah, so, you know, maybe those things exist. You've got to explain why there's so many murderers in the world. There's got to be some kind of.
Adam Cox: They've all got tumours. Yeah, there's got to be some connection there, right?
Kyle Risi: Yeah, uh, well, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a, I'm not a clinical psychologist or. Neurosurgeon. No. So I don't know but. Just a podcaster. Crazy wild story. Yeah. If that.
Kyle Risi: So what was the documentary called again?
Adam Cox: Uh, Love a Stalker Killer.
Kyle Risi: Okay,
Adam Cox: is that relatively quite new, is it? I think it's in the last sort of six months.
Kyle Risi: Wow, okay.
Adam Cox: But yeah, that's it. Shall we run the outro?
Kyle Risi: I say let's run the outro.
Adam Cox: And so we come to the end of another episode of The Compendium, an assembly of fascinating and intriguing things.
Adam Cox: If you've enjoyed today's episode, then be sure to hit that follow button right in the app you are listening to us right now. It really helps us more than we can articulate. You can also schedule your, you can also schedule new episodes to download automatically, as if you haven't done this already, then leave us, uh, this is new, sorry, I'm not used to it.
Adam Cox: You can also schedule, you can also schedule new episodes to download automatically, And if you haven't done so already, then leave us a little review. Your feedback only helps us to get better. Don't forget that we release new episodes every Tuesday. And until then, remember, in the digital age, our stories are written not with ink, but with the clicks of a keyboard.
Adam Cox: And sometimes those stories refuse to be deleted, lingering like ghosts in the machine, ready to unravel the past. Ooh, poignant! I like to try and leave us with a poignant note.
Kyle Risi: Well, I
Adam Cox: mean,
Kyle Risi: I don't know why you're only starting to do that
Adam Cox: now. Hey, I think all of them have been poignant.
Kyle Risi: We'll see.
Adam Cox: Oh, right.
Adam Cox: Well, we'll see you next week.
Kyle Risi: See you later.
